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Old 04-08-2012, 05:55 AM
 
2,675 posts, read 1,079,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Katie, how did Jesus treat Gentiles and tax collectors? Did he withdraw from them?
Then I ask you again. What did Jesus mean?

Katie
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Old 04-08-2012, 07:29 AM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Then I ask you again. What did Jesus mean?

Katie

What do you understand from these passages about Jesus' attitude and actions towards "tax collectors and Gentiles"?:

And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"

But when he heard it, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles...

a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; and in his name the Gentiles will hope."
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:12 AM
 
7,607 posts, read 2,752,366 times
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Matthew 21:28-32
But what do you think? A man had two children, and he came to the first child and said, ‘go work today in the vineyard.’ And the child answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went.
The man came to the second child and said the same thing; and the child answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go.

Which of the two children did the will of his father? They said, 'The first.' Jesus said to them, 'Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.
For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward,
so as to believe him.'

Unfortunately, many come to you in the way of self-righteousness and condemnation, for they have hardened their hearts in unbelief that:

"Christ Jesus was sent to be the Savior of all humanity, not holding their sins against them."

1 Timothy 4:10

[It] is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

"He who believes will not be remorseful."

Last edited by Jerwade; 04-08-2012 at 08:29 AM..
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:12 AM
 
Location: USA
5,761 posts, read 2,188,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Matthew 21:28-32
But what do you think? A man had two children, and he came to the first child and said, ‘go work today in the vineyard.’ And the child answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went.
The man came to the second child and said the same thing; and the child answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go.

Which of the two children did the will of his father? They said, 'The first.' Jesus said to them, 'Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.
For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward,
so as to believe him.'

Unfortunately, many come to you in the way of self-righteousness and condemnation, for they have hardened their hearts in unbelief that:

"Christ Jesus was sent to be the Savior of all humanity, not holding their sins against them."

1 Timothy 4:10

[It] is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

"He who believes will not be remorseful."
Happy Easter, Jerwade.

Yes, this is precisely the danger ... a trap that I fell face first into: thinking that Jesus' idea of how to treat "tax-collectors and Gentiles" was the same as the self-righteous religious leaders of his day. And I am truly remorseful for the attitude I had in the past towards people whom the "church" deemed worthy of excommunication.

Last edited by Pleroo; 04-08-2012 at 09:34 AM.. Reason: sp
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Southwest Arkansas
669 posts, read 297,094 times
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Forgiving others is easy forgiving oneself is not
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:27 AM
 
7,607 posts, read 2,752,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Happy Easter, Jerwade.

Yes, this is precisely the danger ... a trap that I fell face first into: thinking that Jesus' idea of how to treat "tax-collectors and Gentiles" was the same as the self-righteous religious leaders of his day. And I am truly remorseful for the attitude I had in the past towards people whom the "church" deemed worthy of excommunication.
And, a beautiful day it is, Pleroo!

Makes one wonder if those who truly believe have excommunicated the various worldly churches?

"Abstaining from false doctrines of self-importance."
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Old 04-08-2012, 06:07 PM
 
2,675 posts, read 1,079,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
What do you understand from these passages about Jesus' attitude and actions towards "tax collectors and Gentiles"?:

And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"

But when he heard it, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles...

a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; and in his name the Gentiles will hope."
We need to let the scriptures speak to this. In each of the passages below, it is believers who are being spoken of, not unbelivers.

17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. (Romans 16:17)

6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.
(2 Thessalonians 3:6)

14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer. (2 Thessalonians 3:14)

10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned. (Titus 3:10-11)

1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. (1 Cor. 5:1-2, 11)

And look at Jesus' message to the church at Pergamum. There were some who were sinning in the congregation. Jesus says, "I have this against you." He says, "Repent, otherwise..."

14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Yes we need to forgive, but we need to withdraw after going through the steps. Withdrawing does not mean you don't forgive a person or stop loving them. In fact, by withdrawing, you may save them, helping them to be reconciled to God. You withdraw because you love them.

My own personal experience is that usually when someone in the church sins, and the steps are followed, that person will usually either repent, or he/she will leave the church because he/she refuses to change.

But if I see that person outside the church, I will always go out of my way to speak to them and to encourage them to come back, to let them know I love and miss them. But it always goes without saying that they must repent.

God Bless,

Katie

Last edited by katiemygirl; 04-08-2012 at 06:47 PM..
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:18 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 937,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
Judge not lest ye be judged.

Forgives us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

The first one has been in my head for as long as I can remember. The second one has been on my mind more recently. On and off for the past year or so, but more constant the past few months.

Lately, I have been struggling with forgiving others, although I do feel none of us is perfect.

I'm tired of turning the other cheek. What role does forgiveness have in your life?
Messiah was/is our example. What did He say from the cross?

Lu 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

What did He tell Peter when he asked how many times are we to forgive men?

Mt 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


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Old 04-09-2012, 08:50 AM
 
Location: USA
5,761 posts, read 2,188,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
We need to let the scriptures speak to this. In each of the passages below, it is believers who are being spoken of, not unbelivers. <snip>
Jesus is the one who said to treat "brothers" who "don't listen" as tax-collectors and Gentiles in the passage you quoted, in the surrounding context of teaching the utmost importance of forgiveness. And Jesus is the one who did not withdraw from Gentiles and tax-collectors. That was his example.

Jesus was also the one who said the Helper/Comforter would come and convict people. Seems one should trust H/C to do it's job and not try to usurp it.

As far as Paul's opinions on what should happen ... Paul himself admitted that there were times when he wrote of his own judgment on things, not necessarily God's. (As an aside ... if every single person in the church was confronted with their personal pet sins by other members of the church, how many would repent? Would there be anyone left to do any confronting, I wonder?)

So, we have Paul (a Jew among Jews, a Pharisee, a leader of the church) saying to not even eat with "brothers" who don't admit to wrong-doing, and we have Jesus saying to treat them like tax-collectors and Gentiles, whom he ate with, to the consternation of the self-righteous Jewish Pharisee religious leaders.

Further, Paul himself goes on to speak of the utmost importance of love, which forgives all things. Seems like Paul understood the concept with his head, but hadn't quite figured out how to allow it to inform all his actions in the same way that Jesus had.


Love ... keeps no record of wrongs, but won't eat with you if you do something wrong? Something isn't adding up.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:58 AM
 
Location: USA
5,761 posts, read 2,188,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Those having a tough time with forgiveness, please watch the following for inspiration. I'd really like to say more because this is such an important topic. But for now, just a little inspiration from Mr. Khamisa, who gives us a wonderful example of the power that is forgiveness:


Azim Khamisa NBC Nightly News - YouTube


"Resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies" - Nelson Mandela
I was finally able to watch this sparrow. What struck me most (beyond the obvious testament to forgiveness, of course), were the faces. The father's radiated peace and kindness. And the change in the countenance of the young man who had done the killing between when he was found guilty of the crime, and after he had received the father's forgiveness ... priceless.
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