Struggling with Forgiveness (preaching, praying, disciple, Holy Spirit)

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

We need to let the scriptures speak to this. In each of the passages below, it is believers who are being spoken of, not unbelivers. <snip>

Katie, I wanted to point out one other discrepancy, aisi, between the epistles and Jesus' words. Jesus says to confront a brother/sister if they have sinned against YOU. The purpose of confrontation is one of reconciliation for the 2 of you. That does not appear to be the goal of the writers of the epistles. Again, they seem to be attempting to usurp the job of the Helper/Comforter by convicting others of perceived sin through ostracizing them.

[katiemygirl]

Pleroo;23776262]Jesus is the one who said to treat "brothers" who "don't listen" as tax-collectors and Gentiles in the passage you quoted, in the surrounding context of teaching the utmost importance of forgiveness. And Jesus is the one who did not withdraw from Gentiles and tax-collectors. That was his example.

Jesus was also the one who said the Helper/Comforter would come and convict people. Seems one should trust H/C to do it's job and not try to usurp it.

According to this passage (Matthew 18:15-17), we can treat someone who is called a brother as a tax-collector and a Gentile only after we ourselves first confront him, then again confront him with witnesses. And after being condemned by the whole Church for the fact that he does not want to repent and turn from the sin in which he lives, we are to treat him as a tax-collector and a Gentile.

Your conclusion seems to be that after the initial three steps, we should continue to treat this sinner as though he has never sinned. You seem to suggest that we ignore the sin from this point on, and go on as if nothing has happened.

We need to ask ourselves how tax-collectors and Gentiles were treated in Jesus' time. Afterall, it is to the people of that time that Jesus is speaking to. It is to the Jews that Jesus says, "Treat them as Gentiles and tax-collectors."

What exactly does this mean?

When Jesus lived, Judea was under Roman authority. The Romans recruited people from Israel who were greedy to collect heavy taxes imposed on Israel. In addition to collecting taxes for Rome, tax-collectors were taking more money from the people in order to gather wealth for themselves. Therefore, they were hated a lot by people including the Pharisees.

Scriptures show us how the Pharisees and the people approached the tax-collectors and sinners. When Jesus entered the house of Levi, the tax-collector (who later became the apostle Matthew), here is what happened.

"The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?” [/LEFT](Luke 5:30)

So, the Pharisees would never allow themselves to eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners.

The evangelist Luke tells us the following:

"Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.” (Luke 15:1-2)

According to this verse, it appears that the Pharisees did not even allow themselves to sit in the same place together with tax collectors and sinners.

Zaccheus, the tax collector was so eager to listen to the teaching of the Lord Jesus about salvation that he overlooked the contempt from people and any other shame and he climbed up into a sycamore tree, so that he might see Jesus when He passed by. Jesus looked at the state of his heart and decided to stop at his home.

"When they saw it, they all began to grumble, saying, “He has gone to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.” (Luke 19:7)

Not only the Pharisees, but all who were present were grumbling and judging Jesus for the fact that He went to be a guest of a tax collector, whom they called a sinner. This shows us that they would have never done so.

So why did Jesus receive tax collectors and sinners or Gentiles?

Because tax-collectors and sinners came to Jesus to receive salvation and repented from their hearts. Their lives were changed and they no longer lived in sin and hypocrisy. When Jesus came into the house of Zacceus, here's what happened.

"Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much." (Luke 19:8)

Zaccheus repented. His life was transformed by faith in Jesus. He did not continue to live in sin and those who insist on living sinfully and try to consider or present themselves as brothers or sisters.

Jesus says that we must address them as the Pharisees and all the people addressed tax collectors and sinners in the biblical passages cited above.

This is what Jesus meant by treating believers who have fallen as Gentiles and tax-collectors.

As far as Paul's opinions on what should happen ... Paul himself admitted that there were times when he wrote of his own judgment on things, not necessarily God's. (As an aside ... if every single person in the church was confronted with their personal pet sins by other members of the church, how many would repent? Would there be anyone left to do any confronting, I wonder?)

So, we have Paul (a Jew among Jews, a Pharisee, a leader of the church) saying to not even eat with "brothers" who don't admit to wrong-doing, and we have Jesus saying to treat them like tax-collectors and Gentiles, whom he ate with, to the consternation of the self-righteous Jewish Pharisee religious leaders.

Further, Paul himself goes on to speak of the utmost importance of love, which forgives all things. Seems like Paul understood the concept with his head, but hadn't quite figured out how to allow it to inform all his actions in the same way that Jesus had.

Love ... keeps no record of wrongs, but won't eat with you if you do something wrong? Something isn't adding up

What isn't adding up has become very clear to me. With all due respect, you do not understand the passage.

That, and the fact that you do not believe the Bible is the inspired/infallible word of God. Therefore, you reject anything you don't agree with, and you cherry pick the verses that agree with your own beliefs. Those you keep and have respect for.

You have accused the apostle Paul of speaking his own personal opinion throughout much of the New Testament. This is Paul, who was personally called by Jesus to be his apostle to the Gentiles. You think he's throwing his opinions around. Everything Paul wrote about how to treat our brothers and sisters who continue to live in sin supports what Jesus said.

Personal pet sins you say? Do you think Jesus was telling people to confront their brothers and sisters over their personal pet sins? Do you consider incest, adultery, fornication, theft, false teaching, idolatry to be personal pet sins? You think it's okay to let that go on in a congregation?

Don't you know that if you don't confront those brothers or sisters who live in sin, that eventually their sin will effect the entire body of believers and in time, you personally?

"Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (1 Corinthians 5:6–8)

Katie

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

Katie, I wanted to point out one other discrepancy, aisi, between the epistles and Jesus' words. Jesus says to confront a brother/sister if they have sinned against YOU. The purpose of confrontation is one of reconciliation for the 2 of you. That does not appear to be the goal of the writers of the epistles. Again, they seem to be attempting to usurp the job of the Helper/Comforter by convicting others of perceived sin through ostracizing them.

This is the major failing of the power hungry religious leadership, Pleroo. They think God and His Holy Spirit (Comforter) are impotent and need us puny humans to enforce God's requirements (Inquisitions, Witch burning, etc.). The Muslims are the worst offenders in usurping God's sovereignty and trying to enforce His will using human sanctions and actions. But the Christian religions even today are little better. They ALL usurp God's sovereignty over us and try to enforce their understanding on others apparently believing God and His Holy Spirit (Comforter) are impotent (actually they are simply manifesting the power and control ambitions of their leaderships).

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

According to this passage (Matthew 18:15-17), we can treat someone who is called a brother as a tax-collector and a Gentile only after we ourselves first confront him, then again confront him with witnesses. And after being condemned by the whole Church for the fact that he does not want to repent and turn from the sin in which he lives, we are to treat him as a tax-collector and a Gentile.

Your conclusion seems to be that after the initial three steps, we should continue to treat this sinner as though he has never sinned. You seem to suggest that we ignore the sin from this point on, and go on as if nothing has happened.

We need to ask ourselves how tax-collectors and Gentiles were treated in Jesus' time. Afterall, it is to the people of that time that Jesus is speaking to. It is to the Jews that Jesus says, "Treat them as Gentiles and tax-collectors."

What exactly does this mean?

When Jesus lived, Judea was under Roman authority. The Romans recruited people from Israel who were greedy to collect heavy taxes imposed on Israel. In addition to collecting taxes for Rome, tax-collectors were taking more money from the people in order to gather wealth for themselves. Therefore, they were hated a lot by people including the Pharisees.

Scriptures show us how the Pharisees and the people approached the tax-collectors and sinners. When Jesus entered the house of Levi, the tax-collector (who later became the apostle Matthew), here is what happened.

"The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?” [/LEFT](Luke 5:30)

So, the Pharisees would never allow themselves to eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners.

The evangelist Luke tells us the following:

"Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.” (Luke 15:1-2)

According to this verse, it appears that the Pharisees did not even allow themselves to sit in the same place together with tax collectors and sinners.

Zaccheus, the tax collector was so eager to listen to the teaching of the Lord Jesus about salvation that he overlooked the contempt from people and any other shame and he climbed up into a sycamore tree, so that he might see Jesus when He passed by. Jesus looked at the state of his heart and decided to stop at his home.

"When they saw it, they all began to grumble, saying, “He has gone to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.” (Luke 19:7)

Not only the Pharisees, but all who were present were grumbling and judging Jesus for the fact that He went to be a guest of a tax collector, whom they called a sinner. This shows us that they would have never done so.

Katie, I don't know if you realize that what you are saying here in a nutshell, is that one should follow the example of the Pharisees, rather than that of Jesus.

So why did Jesus receive tax collectors and sinners or Gentiles?

Because tax-collectors and sinners came to Jesus to receive salvation and repented from their hearts. Their lives were changed and they no longer lived in sin and hypocrisy. When Jesus came into the house of Zacceus, here's what happened.

"Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much." (Luke 19:8)

Zaccheus repented. His life was transformed by faith in Jesus. He did not continue to live in sin and those who insist on living sinfully and try to consider or present themselves as brothers or sisters.

Jesus says that we must address them as the Pharisees and all the people addressed tax collectors and sinners in the biblical passages cited above.

This is what Jesus meant by treating believers who have fallen as Gentiles and tax-collectors.

Katie, did Jesus say that he was going to abide with little Z before or after he repented and was transformed?

According the biblical account, it was before. Aisi, it was the unconditional love and acceptance of Jesus that melted little Z's heart and transformed him.

What isn't adding up has become very clear to me. With all due respect, you do not understand the passage.

That, and the fact that you do not believe the Bible is the inspired/infallible word of God. Therefore, you reject anything you don't agree with, and you cherry pick the verses that agree with your own beliefs. Those you keep and have respect for.

Yes, I've made no secret of the fact that I no longer accept the biblical writings as being the infallible "Word of God". My desire is to view all of it through the eyes of what I believe God to be: Love. That definitely leads to cherry picking!

But, one thing you may not remember, is that I've been on both sides of this issue. For decades I approached the bible with the same mindset that you have. It's only in looking back on it now, however, that I am able to see so very clearly that even with that mindset, one is really only paying lip service to a condemnation of cherry-picking because the reality is EVERYONE who reads the bible, regardless of their mindset, cherry picks -- giving more weight to some things than to others and interpreting certain passages in light of others thereby coming to very different conclusion on the subject at hand depending on which passages one gives the most weight to. It's simply unavoidable.

You have accused the apostle Paul of speaking his own personal opinion throughout much of the New Testament. This is Paul, who was personally called by Jesus to be his apostle to the Gentiles. You think he's throwing his opinions around. Everything Paul wrote about how to treat our brothers and sisters who continue to live in sin supports what Jesus said.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, as if it's a crime. Paul himself acknowledged that some of the things he said were definitely his own opinion, not things he felt should be set in stone as the be all and end all. Beyond that, Paul's frame of reference -- based on his culture, his time in history, and his personal experiences -- colored his writing. That's not a crime ... it's human nature.

Personal pet sins you say? Do you think Jesus was telling people to confront their brothers and sisters over their personal pet sins? Do you consider incest, adultery, fornication, theft, false teaching, idolatry to be personal pet sins? You think it's okay to let that go on in a congregation?

Sin is sin. Non-love is non-love. It's all the same and it's all poisonous to us. Jesus said that even our sinful thoughts (attitudes) make us as guilty/ are as poisonous as our sinful actions.

Can we read each others thoughts? Of course not. That's why conviction is the Helper/Comforter's job, and not ours.

Don't you know that if you don't confront those brothers or sisters who live in sin, that eventually their sin will effect the entire body of believers and in time, you personally?

"Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (1 Corinthians 5:6–8)

Katie

I just don't see the life of Jesus being about self-preservation. He didn't keep himself separate from sinners as if their sin might rub off on him. Certainly, don't go around boasting about sin/non-love as if it's a wonderful thing to be embraced. But there's no need to fear the sin of others, Katie. Love trumps sin.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

This is the major failing of the power hungry religious leadership, Pleroo. They think God and His Holy Spirit (Comforter) are impotent and need us puny humans to enforce God's requirements (Inquisitions, Witch burning, etc.). The Muslims are the worst offenders in usurping God's sovereignty and trying to enforce His will using human sanctions and actions. But the Christian religions even today are little better. They ALL usurp God's sovereignty over us and try to enforce their understanding on others apparently believing God and His Holy Spirit (Comforter) are impotent (actually they are simply manifesting the power and control ambitions of their leaderships).

Yes we have this bad habit of thinking we can help out. Anything other than loving our neighbor(God), then we are interfering, for Love does no harm To its neighbor.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

This is the major failing of the power hungry religious leadership, Pleroo. They think God and His Holy Spirit (Comforter) are impotent and need us puny humans to enforce God's requirements (Inquisitions, Witch burning, etc.). The Muslims are the worst offenders in usurping God's sovereignty and trying to enforce His will using human sanctions and actions. But the Christian religions even today are little better. They ALL usurp God's sovereignty over us and try to enforce their understanding on others apparently believing God and His Holy Spirit (Comforter) are impotent (actually they are simply manifesting the power and control ambitions of their leaderships).

I agree with this. Except that I don't attribute to all religious leaders the motivation of having power and control. Many religious leaders are genuine and sincere ... I just think they don't realize that they are acting out of fear rather than from an understanding of the power of God.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Yes we have this bad habit of thinking we can help out. Anything other than loving our neighbor(God), then we are interfering, for Love does no harm To its neighbor.

A big amen to that.

[katiemygirl]

Pleroo;23781343]Katie, I don't know if you realize that what you are saying here in a nutshell, is that one should follow the example of the Pharisees, rather than that of Jesus.

You obviously didn't read my post very closely to make this kind of comment.

Do you honestly think that when Jesus was speaking to this group of Jews that they understood Jesus to mean they should fellowship Gentiles and tax collectors? You've got to be kidding me!

Jesus was telling them just the opposite. He was telling them to withdraw from people who refuse to repent.

Do you really think Jesus continued to hang out with sinners who refused to stop sinning?

Yes Jesus did eat and associate with sinners. But did He continue to hang with sinners who stayed in sin once He preached? No way!

The reason Jesus hung with sinners was to reveal their sin. But did he continue to tolerate their unrepentant behavior? Absolutely not!

Jesus told us why He hung out with sinners.

"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. (Mark 2:17)

Jesus spent time with these sinful people to reveal their sin, to bring them to repentance, to get them to follow God's word. How could Jesus get them to repent if He continued to hang out with them? He couldn't. He said,

"I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." (Luke 13:5)

Jesus told sinners like it was. He preached the truth, and if they didn't like it, too bad. Jesus told His disciples to shake the dust when people didn't want to hear the truth. He didn't say, "Go ahead and have dinner with these unrepentant sinners." Instead He told them to shake the dust and move on to the next patient.

“And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.” ( Mark 6:11).

Jesus commanded us to treat unrepentant sinners as Gentiles and tax collectors. We are to love our enemies, but not associate with those who sin against us or God without repentance. Loving sinners and associating with them are two different things.

Look what happened with Levi (Matthew) the tax collector.

And after that He went out, and noticed a tax-gatherer named Levi [more commonly known as Matthew], sitting in the tax office, and He said to him, “Follow Me.” And he left everything behind, and rose and began to follow Him. And Levi gave a big reception for Him in his house; and there was a great crowd of tax-gatherers and other people who were reclining at the table with them. And the Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax-gatherers and sinners?” (Luke 5:27-30)

Jesus made friends with Levi, the tax collector, but notice, Levi completely repented, turned from sin, and followed Jesus.

How would Jesus have treated Levi had he remained unrepentant? Do you think He would have continued to hang out with him?

Jesus constantly rebuked sin. He didn't ignore it. He didn't associate with people who continued sinning after being rebuked.

Did Jesus talk or eat with sinners? Yes he did. But either they repented, or He went on His merry way preaching to others.

Jesus didn't tolerate unrepentant sin, and neither should we!

Katie, did Jesus say that he was going to abide with little Z before or after he repented and was transformed?

According the biblical account, it was before. Aisi, it was the unconditional love and acceptance of Jesus that melted little Z's heart and transformed him. Katie, did Jesus say that he was going to abide with little Z before or after he repented and was transformed?

According the biblical account, it was before. Aisi, it was the unconditional love and acceptance of Jesus that melted little Z's heart and transformed him.

What you fail to see is that Zaccheus was searching for Jesus right from the get go. That's why he struggled to see and hear. That's why he climbed the sycamore tree. Jesus knew Zaccheus' heart. He, being God, knew that Zaccheus would turn from sin.

Yes, I've made no secret of the fact that I no longer accept the biblical writings as being the infallible "Word of God". My desire is to view all of it through the eyes of what I believe God to be: Love. That definitely leads to cherry picking!

What this has led to is you making your own religion without any authority whatsoever from God. You make up your own rules as you go. What you like about the scriptures, you keep. What you don't like, you throw out.

But, one thing you may not remember, is that I've been on both sides of this issue. For decades I approached the bible with the same mindset that you have. It's only in looking back on it now, however, that I am able to see so very clearly that even with that mindset, one is really only paying lip service to a condemnation of cherry-picking -- giving more weight to some things than to others and interpreting cerbecause the reality is EVERYONE who reads the bible, regardless of their mindset, cherry picks certain passages in light of others thereby coming to very different conclusion on the subject at hand depending on which passages one gives the most weight to. It's simply unavoidable.

Horsefeathers! That is the biggest fallacy I've ever heard. People like yourself who refuse to accept God's word as inspired use these kinds of excuses to demean the truth of the scriptures. I don't buy it for a minute.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, as if it's a crime. Paul himself acknowledged that some of the things he said were definitely his own opinion, not things he felt should be set in stone as the be all and end all. Beyond that, Paul's frame of reference -- based on his culture, his time in history, and his personal experiences -- colored his writing. That's not a crime ... it's human nature.

Of course you are! You are questioning Paul's authority. You claim Jesus as your Savior, but still reject all or part of Paul’s writings. Yet Jesus sent Paul to bear witness of Himself, and He gave Paul and the other apostles the authority to speak and teach for Him.

Jesus speaking of His apostles said, "16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Luke 10:16)

So my friend, you reject what Paul has to say, you reject Jesus Christ according to what Jesus, Himself, has said.

The bottom line is this Pleroo. You do not accept the authority of the scriptures. If you will not accept the words of Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, then who am I to argue with you? You certainly won't listen to anything I have to say.

I have given you many scriptures to support that Jesus told the Jews to treat unrepentant sinners as Gentiles and tax collectors. Paul's writings support what Jesus said. We are to withdraw from unrepentant sinners after a private warning, a warning with witnesses, and then a final warning from the entire church.

Believe what you will my friend. I'm moving on, doing what Jesus said to do. I'm shaking the dust. There are other patients waiting to hear the truth.

Katie

[saved33]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

You obviously didn't read my post very closely to make this kind of comment.

Do you honestly think that when Jesus was speaking to this group of Jews that they understood Jesus to mean they should fellowship Gentiles and tax collectors? You've got to be kidding me!

Jesus was telling them just the opposite. He was telling them to withdraw from people who refuse to repent.

Do you really think Jesus continued to hang out with sinners who refused to stop sinning?

Yes Jesus did eat and associate with sinners. But did He continue to hang with sinners who stayed in sin once He preached? No way!

The reason Jesus hung with sinners was to reveal their sin. But did he continue to tolerate their unrepentant behavior? Absolutely not!

Jesus told us why He hung out with sinners.

"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. (Mark 2:17)

Jesus spent time with these sinful people to reveal their sin, to bring them to repentance, to get them to follow God's word. How could Jesus get them to repent if He continued to hang out with them? He couldn't. He said,

"I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." (Luke 13:5)

Jesus told sinners like it was. He preached the truth, and if they didn't like it, too bad. Jesus told His disciples to shake the dust when people didn't want to hear the truth. He didn't say, "Go ahead and have dinner with these unrepentant sinners." Instead He told them to shake the dust and move on to the next patient.

“And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.” ( Mark 6:11).

Jesus commanded us to treat unrepentant sinners as Gentiles and tax collectors. We are to love our enemies, but not associate with those who sin against us or God without repentance. Loving sinners and associating with them are two different things.

Look what happened with Levi (Matthew) the tax collector.

And after that He went out, and noticed a tax-gatherer named Levi [more commonly known as Matthew], sitting in the tax office, and He said to him, “Follow Me.” And he left everything behind, and rose and began to follow Him. And Levi gave a big reception for Him in his house; and there was a great crowd of tax-gatherers and other people who were reclining at the table with them. And the Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax-gatherers and sinners?” (Luke 5:27-30)

Jesus made friends with Levi, the tax collector, but notice, Levi completely repented, turned from sin, and followed Jesus.

How would Jesus have treated Levi had he remained unrepentant? Do you think He would have continued to hang out with him?

Jesus constantly rebuked sin. He didn't ignore it. He didn't associate with people who continued sinning after being rebuked.

Did Jesus talk or eat with sinners? Yes he did. But either they repented, or He went on His merry way preaching to others.

Jesus didn't tolerate unrepentant sin, and neither should we!



What you fail to see is that Zaccheus was searching for Jesus right from the get go. That's why he struggled to see and hear. That's why he climbed the sycamore tree. Jesus knew Zaccheus' heart. He, being God, knew that Zaccheus would turn from sin.



What this has led to is you making your own religion without any authority whatsoever from God. You make up your own rules as you go. What you like about the scriptures, you keep. What you don't like, you throw out.



Horsefeathers! That is the biggest fallacy I've ever heard. People like yourself who refuse to accept God's word as inspired use these kinds of excuses to demean the truth of the scriptures. I don't buy it for a minute.



Of course you are! You are questioning Paul's authority. You claim Jesus as your Savior, but still reject all or part of Paul’s writings. Yet Jesus sent Paul to bear witness of Himself, and He gave Paul and the other apostles the authority to speak and teach for Him.

Jesus speaking of His apostles said, "16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Luke 10:16)

So my friend, you reject what Paul has to say, you reject Jesus Christ according to what Jesus, Himself, has said.

The bottom line is this Pleroo. You do not accept the authority of the scriptures. If you will not accept the words of Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, then who am I to argue with you? You certainly won't listen to anything I have to say.

I have given you many scriptures to support that Jesus told the Jews to treat unrepentant sinners as Gentiles and tax collectors. Paul's writings support what Jesus said. We are to withdraw from unrepentant sinners after a private warning, a warning with witnesses, and then a final warning from the entire church.

Believe what you will my friend. I'm moving on, doing what Jesus said to do. I'm shaking the dust. There are other patients waiting to hear the truth.

Katie

Amen. Great post.

Cast your net elsewhere, Katie. No fish here...

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

I agree with this. Except that I don't attribute to all religious leaders the motivation of having power and control. Many religious leaders are genuine and sincere ... I just think they don't realize that they are acting out of fear rather than from an understanding of the power of God.

Their genuineness and sincerity is grounded in the promotion of ancient ignorance, distrust of knowledge ("wisdom of man") and lack of rational thought as a sign of Faith in God and submission to the dictates of the superstitions and beliefs of our ignorant ancient ancestors. Their self-righteous sincerity really does fit the adjective so frequently thrown out by them . . . "filthy rags." They have indoctrinated millions of people to perceive themselves as "pets" in "obedience trials" performing all the specified "tricks" . . . or else! . . . NOT children seeking to become mature in Spirit and love.

Sorry Pleroo . . . I cannot hold them blameless.. They had a greater burden seeking to teach and influence so many other souls. They failed miserably and they retain their self-righteous certainty about upholding God's word. It is a tragedy and a travesty of monumental proportions, IMO.