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Old 04-15-2012, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,937,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Thank you for your honesty Ancient Warrior.

I guess that means you don't believe there is any hope of life eternal. IOW, you believe when you die, you're dead all over like Rover. There is nothing beyond the grave.

With that, I guess I can only echo what the apostle Paul said.

19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. (1 Corinthians 15:9)

Katie
RESPONSE:

>>I guess that means you don't believe there is any hope of life eternal. IOW, you believe when you die, you're dead all over like Rover. There is nothing beyond the grave.<<

How do you make that quantum leap in reasoning? Are you saying that neither Jews nor Muslims believe in an after life?

>>With that, I guess I can only echo what the apostle Paul said.<

Paul also said "Test everything. Hold (only) to that which is true." Also, "Now I am a man and I have put aside childish things."

But I prefer John's "You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:56 PM
 
Location: under a rock
1,494 posts, read 1,402,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Amen Jerwade! On this we can agree. How sad our sojourn through this world if we didn't have eternal life to look forward to at the end.

Katie
Why would life be sad? Puppy dog breath makes me happy! The smell of grass after a spring rain makes me happy! Hearing the laughter of family, friends, and folks in general makes me happy! Do these things not bring joy to you? Will only the belief in an eternal life bring you joy? If you were to close your eyes tonight and not awake...would you be sad? What if nothing happened after death, but death? Embrace life, fear not oblivion.....and be happy, now
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:04 PM
 
5,496 posts, read 4,403,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Shiloh,

I asked AW this same question. Would you mind sharing whether you believe Jesus is the Son of God and he died, was buried and ressurected from the dead? Thanks.

Katie
Son of God - No
Died - Yes
Buried - Yes
Resurrected -No
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,728,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
One major contradiction is between Acts 9:26-30 and Galatians 1:18-24.

Since his conversion, according to Galatians, Paul was at Jerusalem two times in a 14-17 year period. But Acts has him going there three times and one of the accounts (the above) does not match the other.

Galatians highlights the spat between Antioch and Jerusalem and specifically Paul and Jerusalem. Acts downplays this and tries to 'edit' the facts in order to highlight the unity and spread of the church. The clues, other than this error, are obvious that the writer does this.
Seeing as Acts was written by Luke, Paul's traveling companion for several years at least, and a careful enough a writer to be considered an historian, I think it is fair to conclude that Luke wrote based on what Paul told him during their conversations during there travel.

Seeing also as Acts was written maybe 20 years after Galatians, is anyone surprised that some details may have been forgotten? Or mis-remembered?

Who among us has not sat down with the husband or wife or old college buddy and reminisced, only to find that you disagree on some details?

If the bible were inerrant, would there be 50,000 Christian sects, including at least one that teaches that is is ok to disrupt the funerals of our fallen military?

To me it is all about the message of Jesus. You can read Paul for all kinds of interesting things, but IMHO Paul's teachings need be subservient to Jesus' message. Acts is more history than doctrine. Revelation should be removed from the canon and all evidence of it obliterated. But that's just me.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,728,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
But, isn't that the very problem with your argument? You choose to believe 'some things' in the Bible are true and others untrue ... based on 'historical records' (which are those? ... Josephus or ?). So, in a very real sense, 'man's historical records,' have become your 'Bible' or source of truth! (But, how do you determine whether the Bible or the historical record is true or accurate?).

Your logical error is called "Syncretism" ... "picking and choosing whatever you want to believe ---from an unlimited (and 'unbound') range of human sources...of which you consider the Bible to only be 'one of many.' This leaves you with no solid foundation for declaring anything 'true' ... and thus, precludes "knowing the truth and being free indeed"
OK but with all due respect, there are plenty of examples of different Christian sects whose doctrines are formed by taking words and phrases out of context from all over the bible to prove their own cases.

Some examples?

Rapture, unending punishment, the dragon is Satan is Lucifer is the serpent, Gen 15:1 refers to Jesus, and I'm sure if I read through the postings of the usual suspects I could come up with many more.

Plus, we do have available to us at least some works of the apostolic fathers' era, such as those found in the Codex Jerusalem (1 and 2 Clement, Barnabas, and the Didiche) works which shed important light upon the actual beliefs and practices of the early Christian church.

There is nothing wrong with reading Eusebius and Tertullian and Origin and their ilk, who were much closer to the source than were those of the18th and 19th centuries who relied upon KJV for their justification.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:58 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,183 posts, read 19,981,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
But, isn't that the very problem with your argument? You choose to believe 'some things' in the Bible are true and others untrue ... based on 'historical records' (which are those? ... Josephus or ?). So, in a very real sense, 'man's historical records,' have become your 'Bible' or source of truth! (But, how do you determine whether the Bible or the historical record is true or accurate?).

Your logical error is called "Syncretism" ... "picking and choosing whatever you want to believe ---from an unlimited (and 'unbound') range of human sources...of which you consider the Bible to only be 'one of many.'

This leaves you with no solid foundation for declaring anything 'true' ... and thus, precludes "knowing the truth and being free indeed"
I beg to differ

And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:03 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,079,334 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Son of God - No
Died - Yes
Buried - Yes
Resurrected -No
Thank you Shiloh.

Katie
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,937,870 times
Reputation: 255
Originally Posted by jghorton
But, isn't that the very problem with your argument? You choose to believe 'some things' in the Bible are true and others untrue ... based on 'historical records' (which are those? ... Josephus or ?). So, in a very real sense, 'man's historical records,' have become your 'Bible' or source of truth! (But, how do you determine whether the Bible or the historical record is true or accurate?).

RESPONSE:

I choose to believe in well recognized historical evidence rather than the two contradictory New Testament accounts.

Compare NT accounts with other historical records including the Acts of the Apostles. Compare Luke 2's claim that Jesus was born in 6 AD with Josephus' history Flavius Josephus, Antiquities Book 18 Chapter 1, Flavius Josephus, Antiquities 20.5.2 102

Consult any number of references: eg "Judas of Galilee or Judas of Gamala led a violent resistance to the census imposed for Roman tax purposes by Quirinius in Iudaea Province around AD 6". (Wikipedia).

See also the Jewish Encyclopedia on the revolt lead by Judas of Galilee in response to the 6 AD census during which, according to Luke Jesus was born. On the other hand, Matthew 2 claims and his nativity narrative requires that Jesus be born during the reign of King Herod who died in 4 BC.

So there is at least a ten year difference between the DOB for Jesus in Matthew 2and Luke 2.

jghorton should acquaint himself with the history involved.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:29 AM
 
531 posts, read 387,404 times
Reputation: 39
People need to start reading the scriptures with faith... not skepticism...

how many times has someone told me, "I found a mistake in bible!!!"?
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,937,870 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
People need to start reading the scriptures with faith... not skepticism...

how many times has someone told me, "I found a mistake in bible!!!"?
RESPONSE:

They were probably right. "Test everything; hold fast to that which is true." (St. Paul)

The Jesus of History, was a person who existed in the real world. The Christ of Faith is not necessarily a real person. One should be willing to examine the diferences.
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