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Old 04-16-2012, 08:57 AM
 
531 posts, read 387,230 times
Reputation: 39

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

They were probably right. "Test everything; hold fast to that which is true." (St. Paul)

The Jesus of History, was a person who existed in the real world. The Christ of Faith is not necessarily a real person. One should be willing to examine the diferences.
okay... lets set at least the Gamaliel portion of this to rest...

I'm assuming you are intelligent before i write this. do not be misled in the simplicity of my writing style.

#1: Was
Gamaliel speaking here?

#2: Was
Gamaliel under the influence of the Holy Spirit like Paul and Peter and the other apostles?

#3: Was this a quote from
Gamaliel?

#4: Is it possible that Luke accurately quoted
Gamaliel's inaccurate account?

#5: Is it possible that there was more than one person named
Theudas?

#6: What year was it when Gamaliel spoke these words?
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,935,861 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
okay... lets set at least the Gamaliel portion of this to rest...

I'm assuming you are intelligent before i write this. do not be misled in the simplicity of my writing style.

#1: Was
Gamaliel speaking here?

#2: Was
Gamaliel under the influence of the Holy Spirit like Paul and Peter and the other apostles?

#3: Was this a quote from
Gamaliel?

#4: Is it possible that Luke accurately quoted
Gamaliel's inaccurate account?

#5: Is it possible that there was more than one person named
Theudas?

#6: What year was it when Gamaliel spoke these words?
RESPONSE:

1. Yes, according to Luke.

2. No more or less so.

3. Yes according to Luke.

4. Luke's account, like all scripture, is supposed to be divinely inspired and thus free of error (if you buy into that one).

5. There are people all over the world named Thadues. But Theudas, Judas the Galileen, Jesus, and the Egyptian were the messiah candidates at that time.

6. Obviously sometime after the Ascension but before the Council of Jerusalem in 49 AD

Last edited by ancient warrior; 04-16-2012 at 11:01 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:04 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,400,471 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
People need to start reading the scriptures with faith... not skepticism...

how many times has someone told me, "I found a mistake in bible!!!"?
That's funny that is what I was doing when I ran into problems

I could say the same thing to you about the Qu'ran and Book of Mormon - but I know you would immediately have reasons why you should not just have faith in it. And as someone has already pointed out - Paul said to 'Test everything...' Sounds good to me.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:27 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,078,157 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
That's funny that is what I was doing when I ran into problems

I could say the same thing to you about the Qu'ran and Book of Mormon - but I know you would immediately have reasons why you should not just have faith in it. And as someone has already pointed out - Paul said to 'Test everything...' Sounds good to me.
Just curious why atheists are hangin out on a christian forum. I know you have every right to be here, but it doesn't explain why you'd wanna be. Just wondering.

Kate
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:38 PM
 
531 posts, read 387,230 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

1. Yes, according to Luke.

2. No more or less so.

3. Yes according to Luke.

4. Luke's account, like all scripture, is supposed to be divinely inspired and thus free of error (if you buy into that one).

5. There are people all over the world named Thadues. But Theudas, Judas the Galileen, Jesus, and the Egyptian were the messiah candidates at that time.

6. Obviously sometime after the Ascension but before the Council of Jerusalem in 49 AD

I'll simplify your answers to yes or no... please let me know if i've misrepresented your answers...
1:yes.
2:No.
3:Yes.
4:Yes... with reason
5: yes.

6: not a yes or no answer, but you are in the right frame. after the ascension but before 49AD....

Now... Josephus recorded many instances of insurrection and revolt in the land at this time. in fact, he writes (Antiq., xvii. 10, section 4) that there were "at this time ten thousand other disorders in Judea"; and (section 8) that "Judea was full of robberies."

And if you would agree... that the name "Thadues", was very common among the Jews. how in the world could you know for sure which one was which? you could get lost in the history of these men.


And there are multiple disagreements about WHICH Judas was mentioned in Acts, (Judas being a common name as well) and which day of taxing (census) there was more than one.

and the possibility remains, that Gamaliel was mistaken when he spoke and Luke simply accurately recorded his error in memory when he spoke. This does not mean that this passage proves the bible is in error. Gamaliel might have been.

it really comes down to whether or not you believe the bible or you read it to find errors to support your position.

i believe the bible.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,935,861 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Just curious why atheists are hangin out on a christian forum. I know you have every right to be here, but it doesn't explain why you'd wanna be. Just wondering.

Kate
RESPONSE:

Dear "Just Wondering,"

You are continuing to exhibit a recurring problem in reasoning. Those who are not Christians are not automatically atheists. For example, Jews and Muslims are theists. Deists are also theists but do not believe that God made a revealation.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:45 PM
 
531 posts, read 387,230 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
That's funny that is what I was doing when I ran into problems

I could say the same thing to you about the Qu'ran and Book of Mormon - but I know you would immediately have reasons why you should not just have faith in it. And as someone has already pointed out - Paul said to 'Test everything...' Sounds good to me.

That's funny. I don't even go looking for problems with the bible. I don't have to. others do it for me. I hear the problems and i'm left with the question:

What's the problem?

the Qu'ran? yeah... abraham told to sacrifice Ishmael and not Isaac at mecca instead of Mt. Moriah? right....

The book of Mormon? What's in there that I need that i can't find in the bible?
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,935,861 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
I'll simplify your answers to yes or no... please let me know if i've misrepresented your answers...
1:yes.
2:No.
3:Yes.
4:Yes... with reason
5: yes.

6: not a yes or no answer, but you are in the right frame. after the ascension but before 49AD....

Now... Josephus recorded many instances of insurrection and revolt in the land at this time. in fact, he writes (Antiq., xvii. 10, section 4) that there were "at this time ten thousand other disorders in Judea"; and (section 8) that "Judea was full of robberies."

And if you would agree... that the name "Thadues", was very common among the Jews. how in the world could you know for sure which one was which? you could get lost in the history of these men.


And there are multiple disagreements about WHICH Judas was mentioned in Acts, (Judas being a common name as well) and which day of taxing (census) there was more than one.

and the possibility remains, that Gamaliel was mistaken when he spoke and Luke simply accurately recorded his error in memory when he spoke. This does not mean that this passage proves the bible is in error. Gamaliel might have been.

it really comes down to whether or not you believe the bible or you read it to find errors to support your position.

i believe the bible.
RESPONSE:

>> (Antiq., xvii. 10, section 4) that there were "at this time ten thousand other disorders in Judea"; and (section 8) that "Judea was full of robberies."<<


Observe. This does not address messianic pretenders, another matter.

Faith is different from reason.

From Wikipedia:
  1. Rationalism holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma, tradition or religious teaching.
  2. Fideism holds that faith is necessary, and that beliefs may be held without evidence or reason, or even in conflict with evidence and reason.
I prefer reason and evidence based realities.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:07 PM
 
531 posts, read 387,230 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

>> (Antiq., xvii. 10, section 4) that there were "at this time ten thousand other disorders in Judea"; and (section 8) that "Judea was full of robberies."<<


Observe. This does not address messianic pretenders, another matter.

Faith is different from reason.

From Wikipedia:
  1. Rationalism holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma, tradition or religious teaching.
  2. Fideism holds that faith is necessary, and that beliefs may be held without evidence or reason, or even in conflict with evidence and reason.
I prefer reason and evidence based realities.
So your observation is that these men didn't cause disorders? Messianic pretenders leading hundreds or more to overthrow the Romans? No disorder?

really?

I prefer the evidence of things not seen.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:26 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,400,471 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Just curious why atheists are hangin out on a christian forum. I know you have every right to be here, but it doesn't explain why you'd wanna be. Just wondering.

Kate
I think this has been answered earlier in this thread - The truth matters and error has consequences.
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