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Old 04-16-2012, 09:45 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,594,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

It's not "word play." It's a falsified prophecy. Lets not try to change the plain meaning of words that are written:

".... dwelt in a city called Nazareth:"

??? What part of He and His family lived in Nazareth don't you understand?


Lu 2:39 And when they [Joseph/Mary]had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

Lu 2:51 And he [Christ]went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart
.

Lu 4:16 And he [Messiah] came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:03 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,080,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

>>I detect a bit of sarcasm here?<<

No sarcasm. Just proving your error in reasoning.

>>I could have sworn I'd read quite a few of your posts on the atheism thread, and that you are an atheist<<

RESPONSE:

I've never posted on the atheism thread as best I can recall.
>>You've already pretty much said you aren't a christian. I mean, you did say you don't believe Jesus arose from the dead. I guess that leaves christian out of the picture.<<

RESPONSE:

Do all Christians believe Jesus literally rose from the dead?
Anyway, I'm a deist.

>>You already know that I'm a christian, one who believes the Bible is inspired and inerrant.<<

RESPONSE:

Matt 2:1 "In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea," Note: King Herod died in 4 BC.

and

Luke 2: 1-6 "This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. 3All went to their own towns to be registered. 4Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. 5He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child. 6While they were there, the time came for her to deliver her child. "

Note: Quirinus' census of Judea took place when Judea first came under the control of the Roman governor of Syria. This was in 6 AD ten years after the death of Herod while his son Archelaus was ruler of Judea.

Are you saying that both passages are inspired and inerrant?
Thanks for defining what you are. Some may have an interest in debating with you. I don't. I pray that someday you might change the way you think before it is too late.

Kate
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,939,110 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
??? What part of He and His family lived in Nazareth don't you understand?


Lu 2:39 And when they [Joseph/Mary]had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

Lu 2:51 And he [Christ]went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart
.

Lu 4:16 And he [Messiah] came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
RESPONSE:

Luke has a problem here in the very beginning. The census of Quirinius in 6 AD was a local census of Judea.

Mary and Joseph according to Luke originally resided in Nazareth of Galilee, not Judea. Galilee continued to be governed by Herod Antipas, another of Herod's sons and inheritors, until 37 AD. Thus, its inhabitants were not involved in Quirinius' census of Judea.

Matthew's account of Jesus birth before 4 BC when King Herod died has has Joseph and Mary already residing in Bethlehem so there is no census, 'no room at the in," manger story, singing angels, shepherds, etc.

These are vastly contradictory "inerrant, inspired, or infallible bible stories.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,939,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Thanks for defining what you are. Some may have an interest in debating with you. I don't. I pray that someday you might change the way you think before it is too late.

Kate
RESPONSE:

Yes. Most who try to claim that the bible is inerrant and inspired have the good sense not to participate in a debate which so easily shows that this view is not historically tenable.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:44 AM
 
531 posts, read 387,521 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Luke has a problem here in the very beginning. The census of Quirinius in 6 AD was a local census of Judea.

Mary and Joseph according to Luke originally resided in Nazareth of Galilee, not Judea. Galilee continued to be governed by Herod Antipas, another of Herod's sons and inheritors, until 37 AD. Thus, its inhabitants were not involved in Quirinius' census of Judea.

Matthew's account of Jesus birth before 4 BC when King Herod died has has Joseph and Mary already residing in Bethlehem so there is no census, 'no room at the in," manger story, singing angels, shepherds, etc.

These are vastly contradictory "inerrant, inspired, or infallible bible stories.
i realize you are trying to make your point... but i'm still not seeing what you are saying here. What again is the clear and present contradiction you are pointing out?

i guess what i'm wanting, if you are willing is to show the scriptures that contradict each other...
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:23 AM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,594,070 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Luke has a problem here in the very beginning. The census of Quirinius in 6 AD was a local census of Judea.

Mary and Joseph according to Luke originally resided in Nazareth of Galilee, not Judea. Galilee continued to be governed by Herod Antipas, another of Herod's sons and inheritors, until 37 AD. Thus, its inhabitants were not involved in Quirinius' census of Judea.

Matthew's account of Jesus birth before 4 BC when King Herod died has has Joseph and Mary already residing in Bethlehem so there is no census, 'no room at the in," manger story, singing angels, shepherds, etc.

These are vastly contradictory "inerrant, inspired, or infallible bible stories.
Luke 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed."

*And it came to pass in the Hebrew is "v`yahi bemeyi," a Hebraism used to mark a time whereby trouble is ending in a blessing. [It's used several times in the book of Luke].

Luke 2:2 "(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)"
This pinpoints the time of this first census, Cyrenius/governor of Syria.

The second census was years later [Acts 5:37].

BTW, this is not only recorded the Scriptures, but is also documented in the British museum.

This is a long article but this guy explains it better than I can and he also explains the seemingly 'differences' in the accounts:

New Testament Chronology - Census of Quirinius
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,939,110 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
i realize you are trying to make your point... but i'm still not seeing what you are saying here. What again is the clear and present contradiction you are pointing out?

i guess what i'm wanting, if you are willing is to show the scriptures that contradict each other...
RESPONSE:

It's really very simple. Jesus could not have been born before 4 BC (Matthew) and again in 6 AD (Luke).

Unless, of course, Jesus was the first "born again Christian" having been born twice!

Compare Matthew 2 and Luke 2. These two nativity narratives are contradictory in spite of any claims of "inerrancy."
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,939,110 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Luke 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed."

*And it came to pass in the Hebrew is "v`yahi bemeyi," a Hebraism used to mark a time whereby trouble is ending in a blessing. [It's used several times in the book of Luke].

Luke 2:2 "(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)"
This pinpoints the time of this first census, Cyrenius/governor of Syria.

The second census was years later [Acts 5:37].

BTW, this is not only recorded the Scriptures, but is also documented in the British museum.

This is a long article but this guy explains it better than I can and he also explains the seemingly 'differences' in the accounts:

New Testament Chronology - Census of Quirinius
RESPONSE:

Yes. The first Roman census of Judea was conducted because Archaleus, Herod's son, was exiled after being in power for ten years. The census almost caused a riot which is also recorded.

You might want to check Josephes' writings, (strangely) Acts of the Apostles, and the Jewish Encyclopedia, etc.

And, incidently, as even the New American Bible admits:

"Although universal registrations of Roman citizens are attested in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and A.D. 14 and enrollments in individual provinces of those who are not Roman citizens are also attested, such a universal census of the Roman world under Caesar Augustus is unknown outside the New Testament."

In short, Luke got this wrong too.

Josephus, Antiquities 17.342-344, 355
"In the tenth year of Archelaus’ rule the leading men among the Jews and Samaritans, findinghis cruelty and tyranny intolerable, brought charges against him before Caesar the momentthey learned that Archelaus had disobeyed his instructions to show moderation in dealingwith them.....Now the territory subject to Archelaus was added to (the province of) Syria, and Quirinius, aman of consular rank, was sent by Caesar to take a census of property in Syria and to sell the estate of Archelaus."

Josephus, Antiquities 18.1-4
"Quirinius also visited Judaea, which had been annexed to Syria, in order tomake an assessment of the property of the Jews and to liquidate the estate of Archelaus.Although the Jews were at first shocked to hear of the registration of property, theygradually condescended, yielding to the arguments of the high priest Joazar, the son ofBoethus, to go no further in opposition."

Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 5, Verse 37.
"37After him Judas the Galilean rose up at the time of the census and got people to follow him; he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered"

From Wikipedia:
Judas of Galilee or Judas of Gamala led a violent resistance to the census imposed for Roman tax purposes by Quirinius in Iudaea Province around AD 6. The revolt was crushed brutally by the Romans. These events are discussed by Josephusin Jewish Wars and in Antiquities of the Jews.

So the 6 AD census of Judea is clearly attested to, and we're left with a ten year difference between Matthew's chapter 2 and Luke's chapter 2 (which makes the Magi stori, the Slaughter of the Innocents, and the Flight into Egypt chronologically impossible. Hence you don't find any of these in Luke's account).

Last edited by ancient warrior; 04-17-2012 at 10:59 AM.. Reason: Addition
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:26 AM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,594,070 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Yes. The first Roman census of Judea was conducted because Archaleus, Herod's son, was exiled after being in power for ten years. The census almost caused a riot which is also recorded.

You might want to check Josephes' writings, (strangely) Acts of the Apostles, and the Jewish Encyclopedia, etc.

And, incidently, as even the New American Bible admits:

"Although universal registrations of Roman citizens are attested in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and A.D. 14 and enrollments in individual provinces of those who are not Roman citizens are also attested, such a universal census of the Roman world under Caesar Augustus is unknown outside the New Testament."

In short, Luke got this wrong too.

Josephus, Antiquities 17.342-344, 355
"In the tenth year of Archelausí rule the leading men among the Jews and Samaritans, findinghis cruelty and tyranny intolerable, brought charges against him before Caesar the momentthey learned that Archelaus had disobeyed his instructions to show moderation in dealingwith them.....Now the territory subject to Archelaus was added to (the province of) Syria, and Quirinius, aman of consular rank, was sent by Caesar to take a census of property in Syria and to sell the estate of Archelaus."

Josephus, Antiquities 18.1-4
"Quirinius also visited Judaea, which had been annexed to Syria, in order tomake an assessment of the property of the Jews and to liquidate the estate of Archelaus.Although the Jews were at first shocked to hear of the registration of property, theygradually condescended, yielding to the arguments of the high priest Joazar, the son ofBoethus, to go no further in opposition."

Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 5, Verse 37.
"37After him Judas the Galilean rose up at the time of the census and got people to follow him; he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered"

From Wikipedia:
Judas of Galilee or Judas of Gamala led a violent resistance to the census imposed for Roman tax purposes by Quirinius in Iudaea Province around AD 6. The revolt was crushed brutally by the Romans. These events are discussed by Josephusin Jewish Wars and in Antiquities of the Jews.

So the 6 AD census of Judea is clearly attested to, and we're left with a ten year difference between Matthew's chapter 2 and Luke's chapter 2 (which makes the Magi stori, the Slaughter of the Innocents, and the Flight into Egypt chronologically impossible. Hence you don't find any of these in Luke's account).

And so I leave you will your folly. There are no inconsistencies in the Scripture, just in men's [mis]understanding of them.

However I must remind you of this. You will stand before the Author of the Scriptures one day and answer to Him.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:13 PM
 
531 posts, read 387,521 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

It's really very simple. Jesus could not have been born before 4 BC (Matthew) and again in 6 AD (Luke).

Unless, of course, Jesus was the first "born again Christian" having been born twice!

Compare Matthew 2 and Luke 2. These two nativity narratives are contradictory in spite of any claims of "inerrancy."

Ahhh... i see where you're going...

I think...

Matthew 2:1 ... Jesus is born
Matthew 2:19 ... Herod dies in 4 BC
Luke 2:1-5 ... Mary and Joseph go to Bethlehem after Quirinius becomes Syrian governer in 6 AD
Luke 2:6-7 ... Jesus is born

is this pretty close...???


You do know that they are two different accounts AND at different times, right?
Matthew 2

1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea( after... the shepherds were told by an angel... the magi saw the star later... and there's traveling time.) in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, 2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? They didn't know where He was... For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.” 3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. 5 They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet: 6 ‘AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH,
ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH;
FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER
WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.’”
7 Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him.” 9 After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. 11 After coming into the house (Not the Inn or a barn or stable or whatever) they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. 12 And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.

clearly... the Magi (or wisemen) were NOT present when Christ was born... clearly. do you agree?

Have you ever wondered why Herod went so overboard and killed all the male children 2 YEARS and under? Perhaps there was some question as to how old he was at the time??? he was consulting the scribes who knew the scriptures (they quote them to him). Herod asked what time the star had appeared... He wanted to know exactly when it appeared... he was trying to nail down a timeline.
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