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Old 04-12-2012, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,931,899 times
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Early on in Acts chapter 5 we have Peter and the apostles hauled before the Sanhedrin. But the speech by Gamaliel saves them.

]“When they heard this, they were enraged and wanted to kill them. 34But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, respected by all the people, stood up and ordered the men to be put outside for a short time. 35Then he said to them, ‘Fellow-Israelites, consider carefully what you propose to do to these men. 36For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him; but he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and disappeared. 37After him Judas the Galilean rose up at the time of the census and got people to follow him; he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered. 38So in the present case, I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; because if this plan or this undertaking is of human origin, it will fail; 39but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them—in that case you may even be found fighting against God!’ They were convinced by him,”

However, the revolt lead by Theudas occurred in 44-46 AD about ten years after Gamaliel’s supposed speech.

So here we have an example of a historical error by Luke in Acts of the Apostles.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 04-12-2012 at 09:27 AM.. Reason: removed brackets
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:27 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,075,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Hint. THe Bible isn't God's word as evidenced by the errors and contradictions it contains.
Like I said, Satan's MO, discredit God's word. Tell people the Bible is not God's word. Satan LOVES that. He doesn't want anyone to have faith in God's word. He wants you and as many as will join you to be on his side. He wants your soul desperately.

This thread reminds me of how the Jewish leaders responded to Stephen, the first martyr in the early church. When he preached the truth, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears.

People HATE the Bible because it convicts them of their sin. So they lash out. The truth hurts to the point where those who don't want to hear it gnash their teeth and cover their ears.

Katie
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,931,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Like I said, Satan's MO, discredit God's word. Tell people the Bible is not God's word. Satan LOVES that. He doesn't want anyone to have faith in God's word. He wants you and as many as will join you to be on his side. He wants your soul desperately.

This thread reminds me of how the Jewish leaders responded to Stephen, the first martyr in the early church. When he preached the truth, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears.

People HATE the Bible because it convicts them of their sin. So they lash out. The truth hurts to the point where those who don't want to hear it gnash their teeth and cover their ears.

Katie
RESPONSE:

Lets try this one more time. Scripture isn't God's word or it would not contain so many errors and contradictions.

But if one can convince people that it is the work of God and do the interpreting for them, they can pretty mush control the "believer."

And if someone points out some obvious errors, it's only because they are "enemies of Jesus," right?
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:24 AM
 
37,356 posts, read 25,159,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Logic is the foundation for it. If it is claimed that God inspired all scripture and that scripture contains errors or contradictions, then God is responsible for those errors or contradictions.

Is God ignorant of the facts or does God deceive?
Straw man argument. God's revelations are geared to the knowledge and sophistication of the audience with appropriate clues for revising as the audience evolves and matures spiritually.
Quote:
>>The inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible are there DELIBERATELY to provide clues to revise the earlier ancient ignorant interpretations and understandings<<

This isn't creditable because it admits that God made errors for whatever reason. Moreover, if true than we can't rely on even the present bible as being God's word since it meaning might still be evolving.
Of course it is credible . . . you completely misunderstand the role of scripture. As science, according to its own estimation, "unravels the mystery" it's writers put their own twists to theory, get it wrong, change their minds, disprove each other, sometimes not for centuries... science is well on it's young way to becoming as pompous, political and unyielding as the most ardent bible "believers". And if it was compiled into a bible, from all those writers over time, science would be at least as contradictory as the scriptures! Over time. So, come on, you must measure with the same stick!

This aspect of the scriptures . . . that they encompass centuries of "spiritual" understanding from primitives with evolving intellect and minimal knowledge . . . (and that they were selectively compiled by men with differing agendas by committee!!) . . . is too often missed. That it applies equally to science . . . except that it isn't compiled into a "divinely-inspired" set of books . . . (even though it IS divinely inspired . . . if you read how the actual intuitive breakthroughs were achieved in so many instances) . . . is also missed.

The sad societal crime of the fundamentalist literalists and infallible inerrantists is the segregation of science and religion that occurred BECAUSE of the power-hungry and dogmatic religious totalitarians. The evolution of our understanding has been continuous . . . it is the man-demanded separation of sources into stagnated biblical sources and separate still evolving scientific sources that causes all the problems.

Sometimes the writing in the bible is an argument....like the book of Job. I wish I could dispense with the language, culture, generational and era problems and be able to sit in on the actual conversation. I'm thinking it would sound like the best of the metaphysical threads on the forums! Concerning the bible, I think it is best not to throw The Baby out with the wash water!

Mark 4:26,

. . . Thus is the kingdom of God, as though a man should cast seed into the earth, then sleep and rise, night and day, and the seed should sprout without his knowing it. For of itself the earth bears the crop, first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear.

Religious beliefs, like most of our emotionally-laden cognitive structures, serve as need-satisfiers for a variety of otherwise unsatisfiable emotional needs. Perhaps that is why, unlike other belief systems, religious beliefs have resisted change, despite the overwhelming evidence that every other area of human concern has clearly benefited from a natural intellectual evolution of knowledge.
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:33 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,075,858 times
Reputation: 228
[quote=ancient warrior;23827485]RESPONSE:

Lets try this one more time. Scripture isn't God's word or it would not contain so many errors and contradictions.

But if one can convince people that it is the work of God and do the interpreting for them, they can pretty mush control the "believer."

And if someone points out some obvious errors, it's only because they are "enemies of Jesus," right?[/QUOT

★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★

Jesus said if you reject His word, you reject Him and His Father. So yes, you spoke correctly when you said those who say God's word has errors are enemies of Jesus.

Scripture is God's word. You putting it down and demeaning it constantly will never change the truths contained within the Bible.

Anyone who puts this much time into looking for contradictions in any book must feel threatened, be very insecure and in desperate need for others to validate what he says.

There can be only one goal and purpose for this kind of thread and that is to destroy what little bit of faith some unsuspecting reader may have, someone who is vulnerable and teetering on the edge. It is not uplifting to anyone. It accomplishes nothing but destruction. Like I said, Satan is loving it!

Katie
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:48 AM
 
37,356 posts, read 25,159,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Jesus said if you reject His word, you reject Him and His Father. So yes, you spoke correctly when you said those who say God's word has errors are enemies of Jesus.
But they are NOT saying God's Word has errors because God's Word is Jesus Christ. They are saying the written recordings ABOUT Him have inconsistencies and contradictions as deliberate clues for future audiences to revise their understanding.
Quote:
Scripture is God's word. You putting it down and demeaning it constantly will never change the truths contained within the Bible.
No, katie . . . scripture is about God's Word Jesus Christ. No one is demeaning or putting down the truths in the bible. It is God-inspired . . . NOT inerrant or infallible . . . but USEFUL.
Quote:
Anyone who puts this much time into looking for contradictions in any book must feel threatened, be very insecure and in desperate need for others to validate what he says.

There can be only one goal and purpose for this kind of thread and that is to destroy what little bit of faith some unsuspecting reader may have, someone who is vulnerable and teetering on the edge. It is not uplifting to anyone. It accomplishes nothing but destruction. Like I said, Satan is loving it!
Katie
If you insist on demanding that the faith in the truth recorded in the Bible must depend on it being infallible or inerrant . . . YOU endanger the faith of millions as the truths revealed by our over 2000+ years of accumulated knowledge exposes the absurdities in any literal interpretation of the ancient ignorance. It unnecessarily demands the belief in absurdities to believe in Christ and His Gospel. That is the real danger to Faith, katie.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 04-12-2012 at 12:18 PM..
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:09 AM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,391,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
There are no contradictions in the book of Acts, or any other book of the Bible. God's word is inspired and infallible. The only contradictions I see are in the minds of readers such as yourself.
Well, that is how you would have to see it with such cognitive bias and dissonance.

Quote:
I'm wondering why you are working so hard to discredit God's word? You have every right to not believe, but why try to bring others down? Why does it bother you so much that people believe the Bible?

Katie
I am not trying to 'bring others down' and it does not bother me if someone just believes. The problem comes in with people like you who make unsubstantiated claims and who refuse to deal with certain problems all the while making other statements like the one above impuning the stability of my mind or the one below that suggests that I am a worker of SATAN . Furthermore, many believers arrogantly pedal this stuff with such zeal and detail it needs to be dealt with in kind sometimes. Lastly, since I was a Christian I know the Bible very, very, well so these issues are already present in my mind and so I share my thoughts on it.

I figured that would be the only response somelike you would have to make - it is indicative of the problem and problems should not be left to zealous reactionary propagandists who offer nothing but ad-hominem arguments.

Last edited by Shiloh1; 04-12-2012 at 12:16 PM..
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:38 AM
 
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Since everyone is arguing over inspiriation (even though many are 'christians') would you guys define inspiration. I know Mike has already done so - which to me is the right way to interpret the the Bible and the intentions of its writers.

The Bible is said to be 'inspired' by an all-powerful and all-knowing God - why would anyone trust this God or the Bible if it is inaccurate in any way? The Bible does not teach that there is accurate and inaccurate information within it that can be changed according to the comtempory knowledge of humans. This just presents another epistemological problem - how do you know which is which - and don't say the Spirit guides me. If that is the case why not just get it right the first time?

Where does the BIble make such a distinction and say it can accomodate truth and error? If historical, scientific, and other errors coexist with the truth why would you trust the God who allowed or sanctioned such a method to reveal truth? That makes no sense.

The Bible does not just give you 'Spiritual Truth' and leave the rest to be guessed at by the writers making historical and other inaccuracies. It presents God as controlling History and intervening in it. The Bible gives sanction to those historical facts - you know like the command to slaughter children and keep slaves.

It makes no sense to trust a being who partly inspires or who can evolve. Language and mans abiltiy to think abstractly can make anythhng 'cohere' with a-priori definitions. This is exactly what is going on here in this thread - the struggle to cohere something that has obvious problems.

Last edited by Shiloh1; 04-12-2012 at 12:01 PM..
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:46 PM
 
37,356 posts, read 25,159,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Since everyone is arguing over inspiriation (even though many are 'christians') would you guys define inspiration. I know Mike has already done so - which to me is the right way to interpret the the Bible and the intentions of its writers.
Nonsense. You cannot accept what illiterate ignorant primitive savages interpreted using their superstitions and barbaric beliefs about God and the need to sacrifice to appease Him. It is idiotic.
Quote:
The Bible is said to be 'inspired' by an all-powerful and all-knowing God - why would anyone trust this God or the Bible if it is inaccurate in any way? The Bible does not teach that there is accurate and inaccurate information within it that can be changed according to the comtempory knowledge of humans. This just presents another epistemological problem - how do you know which is which - and don't say the Spirit guides me. If that is the case why not just get it right the first time?
We are evolving and our spiritual understanding is evolving along with our physical evolution of the brain. Envision being a medical doctor at some primitive outpost of humanity. You have in your possession the serums and knowledge of hygiene that the primitives need to stop the disastrous effects of a plague. You must somehow convince them to use the serum and follow your instructions about changing their hygiene habits to halt the spread of the disease. Short of providing them with 13 or more years of twenty-first century education, what can you do?

Obviously, your ministry must conform to their level of understanding and cultural mores. Absolution of "sins," and casting out "devils," are the techniques of ministry that might apply. Besides when you think about it, poor hygiene and "sinful behavior" are not that inconsistent, and an invading bacteria or virus is not that different from an "inhabiting devil" in its unseen character and overall deleterious effect on the person so "inhabited."

The early apostles were basically primitives dealing with primitives. They could not use very exotic concepts as Jesus said. However, the apostles that were to follow were supposed to refine their knowledge and improve on the earlier primitive concepts as the knowledge of humankind advanced. In essence, they were to be the "spiritual doctors" helping to reduce the incidence of "spiritual miscarriage" and increase the number of "spiritual rebirths." Unlike our modern medical doctors, these spiritual doctors did not progress very rapidly.

If our medical doctors had progressed at the same rate as the spiritual doctors, they would still be trying to "remove evil spirits," hanging garlic and wolfsbane to "protect against devils," and similar idiocy. A failure to understand this basic feature of Christian scripture is a prime cause of the ridiculous distortions we have today.
Quote:
Where does the BIble make such a distinction and say it can accomodate truth and error? If historical, scientific, and other errors coexist with the truth why would you trust the God who allowed or sanctioned such a method to reveal truth? That makes no sense.
What do you think the reference to "carnal milk" as opposed to "solid food" is all about?
Quote:
The Bible does not just give you 'Spiritual Truth' and leave the rest to be guessed at by the writers making historical and other inaccuracies. It presents God as controlling History and intervening in it. The Bible gives sanction to those historical facts - you know like the command to slaughter children and keep slaves.
The savages responsible for attributing things to God are responsible for the atrocities . . . NOT God. It is NOT a history book . . . it is a spiritual instruction book with lessons of Good and Evil for us to learn to discern for ourselves. Why else give us such powerful reasoning abilities?
Quote:
It makes no sense to trust a being who partly inspires or who can evolve. Language and mans abiltiy to think abstractly can make anythhng 'cohere' with a-priori definitions. This is exactly what is going on here in this thread - the struggle to cohere something that has obvious problems.
Nonsense. You are as fundamentalist in your objections on the opposite side of the issues and concerns as Katie and Mike are in their literal interpretations. You all make the mistake of taking an "All or nothing" position with respect to God-inspirations . . . very irrational and foolish.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,931,899 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Straw man argument. God's revelations are geared to the knowledge and sophistication of the audience with appropriate clues for revising as the audience evolves and matures spiritually.
Of course it is credible . . . you completely misunderstand the role of scripture. As science, according to its own estimation, "unravels the mystery" it's writers put their own twists to theory, get it wrong, change their minds, disprove each other, sometimes not for centuries... science is well on it's young way to becoming as pompous, political and unyielding as the most ardent bible "believers". And if it was compiled into a bible, from all those writers over time, science would be at least as contradictory as the scriptures! Over time. So, come on, you must measure with the same stick!

This aspect of the scriptures . . . that they encompass centuries of "spiritual" understanding from primitives with evolving intellect and minimal knowledge . . . (and that they were selectively compiled by men with differing agendas by committee!!) . . . is too often missed. That it applies equally to science . . . except that it isn't compiled into a "divinely-inspired" set of books . . . (even though it IS divinely inspired . . . if you read how the actual intuitive breakthroughs were achieved in so many instances) . . . is also missed.

The sad societal crime of the fundamentalist literalists and infallible inerrantists is the segregation of science and religion that occurred BECAUSE of the power-hungry and dogmatic religious totalitarians. The evolution of our understanding has been continuous . . . it is the man-demanded separation of sources into stagnated biblical sources and separate still evolving scientific sources that causes all the problems.

Sometimes the writing in the bible is an argument....like the book of Job. I wish I could dispense with the language, culture, generational and era problems and be able to sit in on the actual conversation. I'm thinking it would sound like the best of the metaphysical threads on the forums! Concerning the bible, I think it is best not to throw The Baby out with the wash water!

Mark 4:26,

. . . Thus is the kingdom of God, as though a man should cast seed into the earth, then sleep and rise, night and day, and the seed should sprout without his knowing it. For of itself the earth bears the crop, first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear.

Religious beliefs, like most of our emotionally-laden cognitive structures, serve as need-satisfiers for a variety of otherwise unsatisfiable emotional needs. Perhaps that is why, unlike other belief systems, religious beliefs have resisted change, despite the overwhelming evidence that every other area of human concern has clearly benefited from a natural intellectual evolution of knowledge.
RESPONSE

Indeed, I must misunderstand scripture. I though it was suppose to be God's unchangeable truth as presented. Not that the truth changed over time.
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