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Old 04-12-2012, 01:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE

Indeed, I must misunderstand scripture. I though it was suppose to be God's unchangeable truth as presented. Not that the truth changed over time.
Humanity's understanding of truth changes over time, not truth itself.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,881,214 times
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[quote=katiemygirl;23827905]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Lets try this one more time. Scripture isn't God's word or it would not contain so many errors and contradictions.

But if one can convince people that it is the work of God and do the interpreting for them, they can pretty mush control the "believer."

And if someone points out some obvious errors, it's only because they are "enemies of Jesus," right?[/QUOT

★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★

Jesus said if you reject His word, you reject Him and His Father. So yes, you spoke correctly when you said those who say God's word has errors are enemies of Jesus.

Scripture is God's word. You putting it down and demeaning it constantly will never change the truths contained within the Bible.

Anyone who puts this much time into looking for contradictions in any book must feel threatened, be very insecure and in desperate need for others to validate what he says.

There can be only one goal and purpose for this kind of thread and that is to destroy what little bit of faith some unsuspecting reader may have, someone who is vulnerable and teetering on the edge. It is not uplifting to anyone. It accomplishes nothing but destruction. Like I said, Satan is loving it!

Katie
RESPONSE:

What makes you think that scripture contains Jesus words in all cases? Did Jesus write it?

"Their authors (of the Gospels) did not deliberately invent or falsify facts about Jesus, but they were not primarily concerned with historical accuracy. They readily included material drawn from the Christian communities' experience of the risen Jesus. Words, for instance, were put in the mouth of Jesus and stories were told about him which, though not historical in the strict sense, nevertheless, in the minds of the evangelists, fittingly expressed the real meaning and intent of Jesus as faith had come to perceive him. For this reason, scholars have come to make a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith." [Excerpted from A Concise History of the Catholic Church Father Thomas Bokenkotter, SS]

Did God actually write the scriptures? And do you think He went through all that trouble to give man rational faculities if he didn't expect man to use his reason to judge the difference between fact and fiction?

>>Anyone who puts this much time into looking for contradictions in any book must feel threatened, be very insecure and in desperate need for others to validate what he says.<<

Or he's a historian or a scientist.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 04-12-2012 at 01:52 PM.. Reason: dumped "sizes"
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:00 PM
 
36,336 posts, read 24,414,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE

Indeed, I must misunderstand scripture. I though it was suppose to be God's unchangeable truth as presented. Not that the truth changed over time.
The truth doesn't change . . . our ignorant understanding improves with more knowledge over time.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,881,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nonsense. You cannot accept what illiterate ignorant primitive savages interpreted using their superstitions and barbaric beliefs about God and the need to sacrifice to appease Him. It is idiotic. We are evolving and our spiritual understanding is evolving along with our physical evolution of the brain. Envision being a medical doctor at some primitive outpost of humanity. You have in your possession the serums and knowledge of hygiene that the primitives need to stop the disastrous effects of a plague. You must somehow convince them to use the serum and follow your instructions about changing their hygiene habits to halt the spread of the disease. Short of providing them with 13 or more years of twenty-first century education, what can you do?

Obviously, your ministry must conform to their level of understanding and cultural mores. Absolution of "sins," and casting out "devils," are the techniques of ministry that might apply. Besides when you think about it, poor hygiene and "sinful behavior" are not that inconsistent, and an invading bacteria or virus is not that different from an "inhabiting devil" in its unseen character and overall deleterious effect on the person so "inhabited."

The early apostles were basically primitives dealing with primitives. They could not use very exotic concepts as Jesus said. However, the apostles that were to follow were supposed to refine their knowledge and improve on the earlier primitive concepts as the knowledge of humankind advanced. In essence, they were to be the "spiritual doctors" helping to reduce the incidence of "spiritual miscarriage" and increase the number of "spiritual rebirths." Unlike our modern medical doctors, these spiritual doctors did not progress very rapidly.

If our medical doctors had progressed at the same rate as the spiritual doctors, they would still be trying to "remove evil spirits," hanging garlic and wolfsbane to "protect against devils," and similar idiocy. A failure to understand this basic feature of Christian scripture is a prime cause of the ridiculous distortions we have today.
What do you think the reference to "carnal milk" as opposed to "solid food" is all about?
The savages responsible for attributing things to God are responsible for the atrocities . . . NOT God. It is NOT a history book . . . it is a spiritual instruction book with lessons of Good and Evil for us to learn to discern for ourselves. Why else give us such powerful reasoning abilities?Nonsense. You are as fundamentalist in your objections on the opposite side of the issues and concerns as Katie and Mike are in their literal interpretations. You all make the mistake of taking an "All or nothing" position with respect to God-inspirations . . . very irrational and foolish.
RESPONSE:

>>"All or nothing" position with respect to God-inspirations . .<<

If we were really dealing with divine inspiration, that would pretty much be the case.

"Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation." (Dei Verbum,11)

So if you are claiming divine inspiration for the Bible, indeed it is pretty much an all or nothing thing.

Are you claiming that NOT all scripture is God breathed???

Last edited by ancient warrior; 04-12-2012 at 02:14 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:11 PM
 
5,485 posts, read 4,273,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nonsense. You cannot accept what illiterate ignorant primitive savages interpreted using their superstitions and barbaric beliefs about God and the need to sacrifice to appease Him. It is idiotic.
I do not accept it. You seem to accept some of it albeit with your subjective interpretations.

Quote:
We are evolving and our spiritual understanding is evolving along with our physical evolution of the brain. Envision being a medical doctor at some primitive outpost of humanity. You have in your possession the serums and knowledge of hygiene that the primitives need to stop the disastrous effects of a plague. You must somehow convince them to use the serum and follow your instructions about changing their hygiene habits to halt the spread of the disease. Short of providing them with 13 or more years of twenty-first century education, what can you do?

Obviously, your ministry must conform to their level of understanding and cultural mores. Absolution of "sins," and casting out "devils," are the techniques of ministry that might apply. Besides when you think about it, poor hygiene and "sinful behavior" are not that inconsistent, and an invading bacteria or virus is not that different from an "inhabiting devil" in its unseen character and overall deleterious effect on the person so "inhabited."
God does not evolve according to the Bible and if he is giving spiritual truth and we are created in his image then there is not need for God to have a problem conveying such truth and making sure we understand it.

Eviserating all meaning from certain words and phrases becuase they do not comport with modern understanding does not give you the right to poor your own subjective sense of what that meaning should be.

Quote:
The early apostles were basically primitives dealing with primitives. They could not use very exotic concepts as Jesus said.
I did not know that the conceptual capabiltites of humans was so diminished 3,000 years ago - especislly when you are being inspired by the Creator of the friggin Universe who is all powerful and all knowing.

Quote:
However, the apostles that were to follow were supposed to refine their knowledge and improve on the earlier primitive concepts as the knowledge of humankind advanced. In essence, they were to be the "spiritual doctors" helping to reduce the incidence of "spiritual miscarriage" and increase the number of "spiritual rebirths." Unlike our modern medical doctors, these spiritual doctors did not progress very rapidly.
Really! how do you know this is the case? Did you read that in the Bible? Oh wait! you have an evolved brain that has tapped into the Spiritual Truth Matrix of the Universe. Got it.

Quote:
If our medical doctors had progressed at the same rate as the spiritual doctors, they would still be trying to "remove evil spirits," hanging garlic and wolfsbane to "protect against devils," and similar idiocy. A failure to understand this basic feature of Christian scripture is a prime cause of the ridiculous distortions we have today.
'Basic feature of Scipture' - what are you talking about - I see no features of scipture that back-up your private interpretations.

Quote:
What do you think the reference to "carnal milk" as opposed to "solid food" is all about?
Certainly nothing along the line you are espousing.

Quote:
The savages responsible for attributing things to God are responsible for the atrocities . . . NOT God.
How convienient when the Bible records that God is the one that those things should be attributed to him and yet God allowed it to be written - why were these things not part of the inspiration? Oh wait it does not sit well with YOU. How convienient and Subjective.

Quote:
It is NOT a history book . . . it is a spiritual instruction book with lessons of Good and Evil for us to learn to discern for ourselves.
And yet when it uses history to convey truth it can not get the facts straight. OI VEY!

Quote:
Why else give us such powerful reasoning abilities?Nonsense.
And yet above you said our reasoning abilities where insufficient for God to convey concepts that can capture the truth???? Is there really that big of a difference between todays hardware and a few thousand years ago that even the Creator can not disseminate an inerrant revelation?

Quote:
You are as fundamentalist in your objections on the opposite side of the issues and concerns as Katie and Mike are in their literal interpretations. You all make the mistake of taking an "All or nothing" position with respect to God-inspirations . . . very irrational and foolish.
I never argued against or flat out denied 'God-inspirations' precisely because I have no idea what the hell you mean by that phrase - hence the request for definitions. My main focus was on the contradictions and the illogic of some posters and their use of that term. It all very subjective and confusing particularly if the truth is suppossed to be in there somewhere.

Why do you even need the Bible Mystic - you seem to disregard and retain what is only convienient for your own subjective sense of what is truth. Cut the middleman out and use your evolved brain to dial-in the cosmic Truth of God - forget that old Book and its primitive interpretations of intellectual doobs, historical errors, and moral repugnacy. Just Soar Mystic - Soar Baby Soar!
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:11 PM
 
36,336 posts, read 24,414,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

>>"All or nothing" position with respect to God-inspirations . .<<

If we were really dealing with God inspiration, that's pretty much true.

"Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation." (Dei Verbum,11)

" For the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond, because (as they wrongly think) in a question of the truth or falsehood of a passage, we should consider not so much what God has said as the reason and purpose which He had in mind in saying it-this system cannot be tolerated....that God, speaking by the sacred writers, could not set down anything but what was true. " [Providentissimus deus]

So if you are claiming divine inspiration for the Bible, indeed it is pretty much all or nothing.
Wrong. You are citing "precepts and doctrines of men" . . . nothing that Christ THE Word of God said or believed.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:31 PM
 
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I wonder why people readily accept physical evolution, but not spiritual evolution?
Also, why it is no problem seeing that humanity is able to understand more and more about the physical world by virtue of accumulated knowledge and revelations over time but cannot see this as a parallel for the progression of spiritual knowledge?

It's all ONE reality we're looking at here ... why wouldn't our understanding of that reality, from both a physical and spiritual perspective, progress in much the same manner?
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:34 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,038,611 times
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[quote=ancient warrior;23831328]
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post

RESPONSE:

What makes you think that scripture contains Jesus words in all cases? Did Jesus write it?

"Their authors (of the Gospels) did not deliberately invent or falsify facts about Jesus, but they were not primarily concerned with historical accuracy. They readily included material drawn from the Christian communities' experience of the risen Jesus. Words, for instance, were put in the mouth of Jesus and stories were told about him which, though not historical in the strict sense, nevertheless, in the minds of the evangelists, fittingly expressed the real meaning and intent of Jesus as faith had come to perceive him. For this reason, scholars have come to make a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith." [Excerpted from A Concise History of the Catholic Church Father Thomas Bokenkotter, SS]

Did God actually write the scriptures? And do you think He went through all that trouble to give man rational faculities if he didn't expect man to use his reason to judge the difference between fact and fiction?

>>Anyone who puts this much time into looking for contradictions in any book must feel threatened, be very insecure and in desperate need for others to validate what he says.<<

Or he's a historian or a scientist.
Of course Jesus wrote every word of the Bible. JESUS IS GOD. So is the Holy Spirit. All three are God! Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Or do you deny this too?

The Bible is inspired, God breathed. God doesn't contradict Himself, make mistakes or lie.

Jesus very clearly said if you reject His words, you reject Him and His Father. So your claim that there are contradictions in God's word is a flat out rejection of Jesus Christ. You are rejecting Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the world.

All scripture is inspired by God. That means all of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments are God breathed. Not only is God's word inspired, it is infallible. God isn't capable of making mistakes. He is PERFECT!

Katie
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:39 PM
 
5,485 posts, read 4,273,228 times
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Katie has spoken thus shall it be
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:46 PM
 
14,375 posts, read 7,170,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Well, that is how you would have to see it with such cognitive bias and dissonance.



I am not trying to 'bring others down' and it does not bother me if someone just believes. The problem comes in with people like you who make unsubstantiated claims and who refuse to deal with certain problems all the while making other statements like the one above impuning the stability of my mind or the one below that suggests that I am a worker of SATAN . Furthermore, many believers arrogantly pedal this stuff with such zeal and detail it needs to be dealt with in kind sometimes. Lastly, since I was a Christian I know the Bible very, very, well so these issues are already present in my mind and so I share my thoughts on it.

I figured that would be the only response somelike you would have to make - it is indicative of the problem and problems should not be left to zealous reactionary propagandists who offer nothing but ad-hominem arguments.

Ad hominems aside, it's actually a great question for all of us to ask ourselves when participating in a thread. Why are we drawn to discussing the subject at hand? For instance, the reasons you give are:

  • people making unsubstantiated claims and refusing to deal with certain problems regarding inerrancy
  • Christians who call into question the character and motivation of those who do not agree with them
  • people arrogantly peddling their religion
  • a desire to simply share your own thoughts
I can relate to many of those things but they don't really address the INNER reasons why a subject like this is important to me, personally. It can be worth taking the time for each of us to really examine what those inner reasons might be. Just a thought.
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