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Old 04-12-2012, 02:52 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,392,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Ad hominems aside, it's actually a great question for all of us to ask ourselves when participating in a thread. Why are we drawn to discussing the subject at hand? For instance, the reasons you give are:

  • people making unsubstantiated claims and refusing to deal with certain problems regarding inerrancy
  • Christians who call into question the character and motivation of those who do not agree with them
  • people arrogantly peddling their religion
  • a desire to simply share your own thoughts
I can relate to many of those things but they don't really address the INNER reasons why a subject like this is important to me, personally. It can be worth taking the time for each of us to really examine what those inner reasons might be. Just a thought.
Yes you are right and I try to do that. As I stated before I was a Christian so I know what it is like to hold to these ideas. As to the inner reasons - I found it harder and harder to hold to these theological ideas the more I thought and studied the issues as a Christian. I try to be very objective and let the chips fall where they may - Christianity just became, for me, intellectually unsustainable. Like you said it is a process.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:00 PM
 
14,945 posts, read 7,506,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Yes you are right and I try to do that. As I stated before I was a Christian so I know what it is like to hold to these ideas. As to the inner reasons - I found it harder and harder to hold to these theological ideas the more I thought and studied the issues as a Christian. I try to be very objective and let the chips fall where they may - Christianity just became, for me, intellectually unsustainable. Like you said it is a process.

Absolutely. I have been going through the same process. My background is that of a dyed-in-wool, raised from birth, biblical inerrantist. It rocked my world when I finally faced the facts, and I went through a period of assuming that since God didn't give a perfect "spiritual instruction manual" as I'd been raised to believe, that meant there wasn't really any God at all.

But I knew that there were Christians who weren't cut from the same cloth, and I came here wanting to hear them out and try to understand how they could maintain their faith without an inerrant manual. I really appreciated the people who were willing to patiently field my questions and help me see things from a different perspective.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Katie has spoken thus shall it be
No, God has spoken. Thus shall it be! You refuse to accept the word of God and you try to drag others down with you. When you attack the word, you reject Jesus Christ. His words, not mine. You claim to know the Bible so you should recognize that scripture and right where to look for it.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:34 PM
 
37,373 posts, read 25,167,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Of course Jesus wrote every word of the Bible. JESUS IS GOD. So is the Holy Spirit. All three are God! Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Or do you deny this too?

The Bible is inspired, God breathed. God doesn't contradict Himself, make mistakes or lie.

Jesus very clearly said if you reject His words, you reject Him and His Father. So your claim that there are contradictions in God's word is a flat out rejection of Jesus Christ. You are rejecting Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the world.

All scripture is inspired by God. That means all of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments are God breathed. Not only is God's word inspired, it is infallible. God isn't capable of making mistakes. He is PERFECT!

Katie
God isn't capable of making mistakes . . . but WE ARE, katie. Your faith is based on a false premise of infallibility and demands that you accept absurdities as reality. You may be indoctrinated well enough to survive the onslaught of over 2000+ years of accumulated knowledge . . . but younger generations will not be. You are condemning your chosen faith to a death sentence in the name of preserving it as a sign of your faith in God. Shiloh is just one of many recent victims of such obstinacy in retention of ancient ignorance. Christ will not be pleased. His ONLY concern is that we "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't, period. That is the Gospel (Good News). Everything else you so fervently demand of yourself and others is mere human vanity and hubris that is facing eventual extinction as our knowledge increases.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:39 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,392,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Absolutely. I have been going through the same process. My background is that of a dyed-in-wool, raised from birth, biblical inerrantist. It rocked my world when I finally faced the facts, and I went through a period of assuming that since God didn't give a perfect "spiritual instruction manual" as I'd been raised to believe, that meant there wasn't really any God at all.

But I knew that there were Christians who weren't cut from the same cloth, and I came here wanting to hear them out and try to understand how they could maintain their faith without an inerrant manual. I really appreciated the people who were willing to patiently field my questions and help me see things from a different perspective.
I hear ya! That is why I wanted to hear from people and their view on what they meant by 'inspiration' - everybody is all over the place. It really becomes an epistemological issue.

I no longer make any claims for God. If one exist I would think that it would not be anything like any of the revealed religions and is probably part and parcel of the Universe as some intelligence only. It would not be for or agaisnt us because, the way the world is is the way it is suppossed to be - a dialetical process unfolding according to natural parameters. As such if it is aware of this process like we our aware of ourselves then this is how it wants it to be - all the struggles and pain to boot.

Mankind is very curious to find out the answers to things especially in light of his fears and dislikes - as such he has jumped the gun in trying to explain things - hence religion, metaphysical speculation, etc. The fact that theologies and religions become systamatized is a result of this dialetic with those who reject it. You finally end up with a theology that is so nuanced it outdoes the original revelation (which is a problem if it is truth). As such the God of the apologists has been reduced to metaphysical syllogisms, possibility arguments, and the like, as proof, becuase of the lack of any epistemological grounding. Man uses metaphysical, metaphoric, and abstract terms to describe and explain his ignorance. They are just reflective linguistic attempts overlaid for natural explanations yet unknown.

If no one can agree on or even be aware of epistemological methods and their priorties as a way to arrive at truth then we are bound to continue using shifting language to create, conceal, and convince others and ourselves of our sentiments which need explanation and justification in our minds. This is why priority should be given to methodologies that reduce subjectiveness and bias when trying to figure out the truth not a-priori definitions that result in coherence but lack correspondence. Most apologetics is of this sort let alone those who just assert things without any justification.

It would be nice if such spiritual stories were true but I would be violating my conscience if I trusted them to be true.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:48 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,392,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
No, God has spoken. Thus shall it be! You refuse to accept the word of God and you try to drag others down with you. When you attack the word, you reject Jesus Christ. His words, not mine. You claim to know the Bible so you should recognize that scripture and right where to look for it.
Do you think that by stating other peoples statements (the writers of the Bible) over and over again it makes it so? Do you think yourself a prophetess and that if you get louder and more condeming of those that disagree with you you will change their mind out of guilt?

You must have reasons for why you believe what you believe but we have not heard anything other than - it says so and you are a bad man for 'attacking' and not believing it. OOOOHHHH!

You feel that I am attacking you becuase I disagree with you? I know you have tried to objectify your beliefs by extending them to a set of stories in a Book but repeating those stories does not justify them.

Last edited by Shiloh1; 04-12-2012 at 04:07 PM..
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:58 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,392,468 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
God isn't capable of making mistakes . . . but WE ARE, katie. Your faith is based on a false premise of infallibility and demands that you accept absurdities as reality. You may be indoctrinated well enough to survive the onslaught of over 2000+ years of accumulated knowledge . . . but younger generations will not be. You are condemning your chosen faith to a death sentence in the name of preserving it as a sign of your faith in God. Shiloh is just one of many recent victims of such obstinacy in retention of ancient ignorance. Christ will not be pleased. His ONLY concern is that we "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't, period. That is the Gospel (Good News). Everything else you so fervently demand of yourself and others is mere human vanity and hubris that is facing eventual extinction as our knowledge increases.
That's great Mystic - funny - really. Made me laugh Although I am not sure what ancient ignorance I am retaining? Can I sell that to someone else It is funny because everyone can say that about anyone - You say it about Katie, Mike says it about You, Katie acknowledges, others retort and procede, and so forth - this thread is proof enough that none of you are right.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:04 PM
 
37,373 posts, read 25,167,866 times
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Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I do not accept it. You seem to accept some of it albeit with your subjective interpretations.
Truth is truth . . . even when it is expressed in terms of ignorant superstition and savage beliefs about God. We have more than enough intelligence and knowledge to discern it.
Quote:
God does not evolve according to the Bible and if he is giving spiritual truth and we are created in his image then there is not need for God to have a problem conveying such truth and making sure we understand it.
Eviserating all meaning from certain words and phrases becuase they do not comport with modern understanding does not give you the right to poor your own subjective sense of what that meaning should be.
I did not know that the conceptual capabiltites of humans was so diminished 3,000 years ago - especislly when you are being inspired by the Creator of the friggin Universe who is all powerful and all knowing.
But WE are evolving and have been for millennia. You seem to doubt the perceptual and cognitive differences of our primitive ancient ancestors. Let me suggest a small test that should convince you that such differences exist and can be quite significant. Select one of the silent movies that was supposed to be serious and dramatic (and was seen as such by those earlier generations). They were fairly recent in time compared to those of 2000-4000 years or so ago. I guarantee that your reaction to the movie will not be serious or dramatic and you will probably have a difficult time not laughing during it. If such significant perceptual differences can exist in only a few generations . . . what kind of differences existed 2000 - 4000 years ago?
Quote:
Really! how do you know this is the case? Did you read that in the Bible? Oh wait! you have an evolved brain that has tapped into the Spiritual Truth Matrix of the Universe. Got it.
'Basic feature of Scipture' - what are you talking about - I see no features of scipture that back-up your private interpretations.
Certainly nothing along the line you are espousing.
You need to explain to me what you think carnal milk versus solid food is all about, especially the things Jesus said had not yet been revealed, etc. Why would you think that God would have abandoned us 2000+ years ago and ceased inspirations? What do you see as the role of the Holy Spirit . . . to reiterate the ancient ignorance already recorded by our ancestors or to assist in revealing the more complete truth Jesus alluded to for those who seek it?
Quote:
How convienient when the Bible records that God is the one that those things should be attributed to him and yet God allowed it to be written - why were these things not part of the inspiration? Oh wait it does not sit well with YOU. How convienient and Subjective.
We have to have a true test of our independent ability to judge Evil and Good. Discerning what is clearly Evil even though it was attributed to God shows we have achieved that ability to discriminate . . . sort of the intellectual equivalent to the test of Abraham's willingness to kill Isaac as a sign of his self-control and obedience to God. When we have evolved to see what is clearly Evil despite our ancestors believing it was God's doing . . . we have achieved the independent spiritual maturity desired.
Quote:
And yet when it uses history to convey truth it can not get the facts straight. OI VEY!
It is NOT a history book, period.
Quote:
And yet above you said our reasoning abilities where insufficient for God to convey concepts that can capture the truth???? Is there really that big of a difference between todays hardware and a few thousand years ago that even the Creator can not disseminate an inerrant revelation?
Try the silent movie test and reread my analogy to the doctors treating a primitive society again. There are no lies involved . . . just formulating the truth in ways that would be understood and accepted by the earlier audiences. Bad hygiene IS sinful behavior and a disease IS the result of an inhabiting devil (microbe).
Quote:
I never argued against or flat out denied 'God-inspirations' precisely because I have no idea what the hell you mean by that phrase - hence the request for definitions. My main focus was on the contradictions and the illogic of some posters and their use of that term. It all very subjective and confusing particularly if the truth is suppossed to be in there somewhere.
Why do you even need the Bible Mystic - you seem to disregard and retain what is only convienient for your own subjective sense of what is truth. Cut the middleman out and use your evolved brain to dial-in the cosmic Truth of God - forget that old Book and its primitive interpretations of intellectual doobs, historical errors, and moral repugnacy. Just Soar Mystic - Soar Baby Soar!
::Sigh:: We need all the "spiritual fossil record" of our spiritual evolution because the sincere speculations and efforts to understand and explain God are the result of God's inspirations . . . poorly understood and misinterpreted as they are. They reveal the "spiritual template" in our brain's DNA that establishes the path our species cognitive ruminations will take to understand God and our purpose.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:12 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,076,147 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Ad hominems aside, it's actually a great question for all of us to ask ourselves when participating in a thread. Why are we drawn to discussing the subject at hand? For instance, the reasons you give are:

  • people making unsubstantiated claims and refusing to deal with certain problems regarding inerrancy
  • Christians who call into question the character and motivation of those who do not agree with them
  • people arrogantly peddling their religion
  • a desire to simply share your own thoughts
I can relate to many of those things but they don't really address the INNER reasons why a subject like this is important to me, personally. It can be worth taking the time for each of us to really examine what those inner reasons might be. Just a thought.
There can be only one motive to insist there are contradictions in the Bible. DISCREDIT AND DEMEAN the word of God.

Once you toss out infallibility, you get to make up your own religion. Make your own rules. Make it just a little like the real thing, then call themselves christians.

I have a whole lot of respect for atheists. At least they're honest about what they believe. They're not pretending to be something they're not. They don't claim to be christians and then toss out the parts of the Bible they don't like. They will simply tell you they don't believe in God or the Bible. I admire their honesty.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:17 PM
 
37,373 posts, read 25,167,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
That's great Mystic - funny - really. Made me laugh Although I am not sure what ancient ignorance I am retaining?
You are NOT retaining it . . . the church and Christianity you reject IS . . . and that is why you reject it. Sorry I was unclear.
Quote:
Can I sell that to someone else It is funny because everyone can say that about anyone - You say it about Katie, Mike says it about You, Katie acknowledges, others retort and procede, and so forth - this thread is proof enough that none of you are right.
This thread is simply proof that we humans are fallible . . . which is why the infallibility doctrine is so ludicrous.
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