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Old 04-12-2012, 04:24 PM
 
14,997 posts, read 7,530,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I hear ya! That is why I wanted to hear from people and their view on what they meant by 'inspiration' - everybody is all over the place. It really becomes an epistemological issue.

I no longer make any claims for God. If one exist I would think that it would not be anything like any of the revealed religions and is probably part and parcel of the Universe as some intelligence only. It would not be for or agaisnt us because, the way the world is is the way it is suppossed to be - a dialetical process unfolding according to natural parameters. As such if it is aware of this process like we our aware of ourselves then this is how it wants it to be - all the struggles and pain to boot.

Mankind is very curious to find out the answers to things especially in light of his fears and dislikes - as such he has jumped the gun in trying to explain things - hence religion, metaphysical speculation, etc. The fact that theologies and religions become systamatized is a result of this dialetic with those who reject it. You finally end up with a theology that is so nuanced it outdoes the original revelation (which is a problem if it is truth). As such the God of the apologists has been reduced to metaphysical syllogisms, possibility arguments, and the like, as proof, becuase of the lack of any epistemological grounding. Man uses metaphysical, metaphoric, and abstract terms to describe and explain his ignorance. They are just reflective linguistic attempts overlaid for natural explanations yet unknown.

If no one can agree on or even be aware of epistemological methods and their priorties as a way to arrive at truth then we are bound to continue using shifting language to create, conceal, and convince others and ourselves of our sentiments which need explanation and justification in our minds. This is why priority should be given to methodologies that reduce subjectiveness and bias when trying to figure out the truth not a-priori definitions that result in coherence but lack correspondence. Most apologetics is of this sort let alone those who just assert things without any justification.

It would be nice if such spiritual stories were true but I would be violating my conscience if I trusted them to be true.

I guess we've all got to find our own way of working through the questions. For myself, I think of "God" as the foundation of our existence. I tend towards a panentheistic view and so I feel inspiration can come to and through anyone and anything. I see spiritual questions as pertaining to our INNER world. The things that others share that resonate with me due to what I've observed of my own inner workings (my psychological make-up, I guess you could say) are what I consider inspiring. In the bible, for instance, I see a record of how the judeo-christian faith progressed over centuries and I feel that it mirrors how we progress, spiritually/psychologically, as individuals.

But, I'm just at the beginnings of working my way through all of this, and assume it will be a lifetime endeavor.

That's probably not a very satisfactory response to your post. I think about things a lot, but I don't have the education to help me communicate things all that well. In truth, I find myself overwhelmed by it all often, but find I never go wrong with one basic thing: love. I honestly feel that filtering everything through love is how I can discern what's spiritually true, because I feel that love is the goal and the force that holds everything together.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:38 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,400,471 times
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Mystic said:

'There are no lies involved . . . just formulating the truth in ways that would be understood and accepted by the earlier audiences. Bad hygiene IS sinful behavior and a disease IS the result of an inhabiting devil (microbe).'

I wonder why Jesus believed in actual demons that can inhabit organisms including humans?

Why couldn't God inspire them or Jesus to not speculate and just say something like:

'we don't know why so do not go and make stupid claims?' or

'disease is not from any invisable beings it is from something that would be too hard for me to explain to stupid ancients like you (that's from the divine perspective of course) so let me give it to you in this form.' or

'Screw history here is a list of the 10 (or whatever) most important truths to follow just do those and you will be fine. I do not want to confuse you ignorant people nor clutter the revelation with history, science, and germ theory.'

But wait God decided to clutter his relvelation with all those things and burden man with the epistemological nightmare of weighing through it. Only until our brains have evolved and Mystic arrived were we in darkness - All Hail Mystic!

We do not see anyhting like that regarding demons Mystic and it would have been just as easy to inspire this sort of truth as the one you are trying to divine by your metaphysical Shamanism. Instead you just pick what is to be stupid interpretations and what is truth and act as if everyone who is not impressed by your mumbo-jumbo is retaining an ancient mentality.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:39 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,078,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
That's great Mystic - funny - really. Made me laugh Although I am not sure what ancient ignorance I am retaining? Can I sell that to someone else It is funny because everyone can say that about anyone - You say it about Katie, Mike says it about You, Katie acknowledges, others retort and procede, and so forth - this thread is proof enough that none of you are right.
The only thing Katie acknowledges is that the Bible is the inspired and infallible word of God. And she is right!

You can't just pick and choose the parts you like. It's all or nothing. Otherwise you are pretending to be something you're not.

Katie
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:41 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,400,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I guess we've all got to find our own way of working through the questions. For myself, I think of "God" as the foundation of our existence. I tend towards a panentheistic view and so I feel inspiration can come to and through anyone and anything. I see spiritual questions as pertaining to our INNER world. The things that others share that resonate with me due to what I've observed of my own inner workings (my psychological make-up, I guess you could say) are what I consider inspiring. In the bible, for instance, I see a record of how the judeo-christian faith progressed over centuries and I feel that it mirrors how we progress, spiritually/psychologically, as individuals.

But, I'm just at the beginnings of working my way through all of this, and assume it will be a lifetime endeavor.

That's probably not a very satisfactory response to your post. I think about things a lot, but I don't have the education to help me communicate things all that well. In truth, I find myself overwhelmed by it all often, but find I never go wrong with one basic thing: love. I honestly feel that filtering everything through love is how I can discern what's spiritually true, because I feel that love is the goal and the force that holds everything together.
That is an honest, humble, and contemplative perspective -
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:42 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,400,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
The only thing Katie acknowledges is that the Bible is the inspired and infallible word of God. And she is right!

You can't just pick and choose the parts you like. It's all or nothing. Otherwise you are pretending to be something you're not.

Katie
Spoken like a true Mind Dictator.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
There can be only one motive to insist there are contradictions in the Bible. DISCREDIT AND DEMEAN the word of God.
Ah! that pesty ol cognitive dissonance.

I could just as easily say that the only motive to insist that there are not contradictions in the Bible and that it is inerrant is to DISCREDIT AND DEMEAN reason, facts, evidence, history, science, etc.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:57 PM
 
37,478 posts, read 25,224,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Mystic said:

'There are no lies involved . . . just formulating the truth in ways that would be understood and accepted by the earlier audiences. Bad hygiene IS sinful behavior and a disease IS the result of an inhabiting devil (microbe).'

I wonder why Jesus believed in actual demons that can inhabit organisms including humans?
As long as you continue to retain the delusion that the chroniclers of the stories used "tape recorders" or "video cams" and faithfully recorded what transpired instead of eventually writing down what had been orally transmitted through uncounted "tellings" (telephone game) . . . we are not going to be able to come to any mutual understanding, Shiloh.
Quote:
Why couldn't God inspire them or Jesus to not speculate and just say something like:
'we don't know why so do not go and make stupid claims?' or
'disease is not from any invisable beings it is from something that would be too hard for me to explain to stupid ancients like you (that's from the divine perspective of course) so let me give it to you in this form.' or
'Screw history here is a list of the 10 (or whatever) most important truths to follow just do those and you will be fine. I do not want to confuse you ignorant people nor clutter the revelation with history, science, and germ theory.'
Why questions are puerile, Shiloh. Why do you not respond positively to the inspirations God makes available to you in your consciousness? Why are you so dominated by a repulsion for the ancient ignorance retained by the churches that you withdraw rather than seek the truth within?
Quote:
But wait God decided to clutter his relvelation with all those things and burden man with the epistemological nightmare of weighing through it. Only until our brains have evolved and Mystic arrived were we in darkness - All Hail Mystic!
We do not see anyhting like that regarding demons Mystic and it would have been just as easy to inspire this sort of truth as the one you are trying to divine by your metaphysical Shamanism. Instead you just pick what is to be stupid interpretations and what is truth and act as if everyone who is not impressed by your mumbo-jumbo is retaining an ancient mentality.
Whatever your beef with me is, Shiloh . . . it should not affect your ability to search your "heart" (and you know I don't mean the pump) for the truth.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 04-12-2012 at 05:38 PM..
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:05 PM
 
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Mystic, who says I do not search my heart or conscience? How would you know and why would judge such a thing?

Take the plank out of your own eye before trying to pull the speck out of mine.

Like I said I would be violating my conscience if I believed the Bible to be the revealed word of God as it states and also your take on it.

By the way I should have been more clear in the last paragraph of my last post - I did not mean that you had stupid intepretations but that your view of the ancients were likened to this.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:08 PM
 
14,997 posts, read 7,530,359 times
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Thanks for the response to my post, Katie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
There can be only one motive to insist there are contradictions in the Bible. DISCREDIT AND DEMEAN the word of God.

Once you toss out infallibility, you get to make up your own religion. Make your own rules. Make it just a little like the real thing, then call themselves christians.

I have a whole lot of respect for atheists. At least they're honest about what they believe. They're not pretending to be something they're not. They don't claim to be christians and then toss out the parts of the Bible they don't like. They will simply tell you they don't believe in God or the Bible. I admire their honesty.

I understand that you feel you have a proprietary duty to defend the inerrancy of the bible and I realize that no matter how much I assure you that I have no desire to discredit or demean something you hold dear simply because I don't agree with you about it's nature, you won't see it that way.

I don't claim to be a Christian any longer, but since it is my background I find it easiest and most comfortable to use Christianity and it's book to assist me in my spiritual journey. It's not my only resource, and I'm slowly working at expanding my view, but still, it's the place I feel most grounded.

I do find it truly sad that you don't consider your fellow Christians who do not hold to your view of inerrancy worthy of your respect, and that you feel okay about assuming they lack integrity. I don't really know what else to say about that, other than that I hope you will consider that your words are hurtful not only to others, but to yourself.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,936,331 times
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Default Yet another error in Acts

In describing two of the messiah candidates (in addition to Jesus) in Acts 5, the Pharisee ,Gamaliel, made a second mistake in addition to the erroneous early dating of Theudas.

Acts 5: -36 “Some time ago, Theudas appeared, claiming to be someone important, and about four hundred men joined him, but he was killed, and all those who were loyal to him were disbanded and came to nothing. 37After him came Judas the Galilean at the time of the census. He also drew people after him, but he too perished and all who were loyal to him were scattered. 38So now I tell you, have nothing to do with these men, and let them go. For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself. 39But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God.” They were persuaded by him.”

Judas the Galilean indeed started an uprising but it was long before Theudas’ time. In fact, Julian’s uprising occurred at the time of the census in 6 AD when the Romans removed Herod’s son Archelaus from control of Judea and placed Judea under the Roman governor (Quirinius) of Syria’s direct control. This was the date that Luke reports as the birth of Jesus (manger legend) rather than Matthew’s during the reign of King Herod (who died in 4 BC).

So there are two obvious chronological errors in Acts chapter 5.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 04-12-2012 at 05:37 PM.. Reason: removed brackets
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