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Help me out here (also w/regard to prior comment about a "Universalist who gets it") --- Unless I am reading something into this post, you both seem to recognize that some will enter into eternal life and others into eternal punishment(?).
Additionaly, while the Op may be mistaken regarding Sodom & Gommorah vs Judah(?), the text still seems relatively clear ... yet, I believe the OP has previously identified himself in the UR camp(?).
Also, in other threads, you seem to strongly support a 'universal salvation' position. What am I missing? Isn't the central tenant of 'universalism' the belief that EVERYONE will ultimately be saved? (I't seems that this, among so many threads, has already been sidetracked to a UR agenda, so, I don't think that I am changing topics here). --- Thanks
You misunderstand the Christian UR view. We are all saved BY Christ . . . but we will reap what we sow and fail to repent of . . . "as if by fire."
Then you would have to understand that if we don't have ENOUGH Faith to be saved then surely it is because He who gives Faith didn't give sufficient Faith to be saved.
If it were my job to give you water when your thirsty and I gave you water but you were still thirstly then obviously I didn't give you enough water.
Then you would have to understand that if we don't have ENOUGH Faith to be saved then surely it is because He who gives Faith didn't give sufficient Faith to be saved.If it were my job to give you water when your thirsty and I gave you water but you were still thirstly then obviously I didn't give you enough water.
I was referring to the comments you have made on this thread, where you argue that you are saved through your works, and if you don't have enough works, then you suffer eternal fire.
I was referring to the comments you have made on this thread, where you argue that you are saved through your works, and if you don't have enough works, then you suffer eternal fire.
I didn't say we are saved through "our" works. But works are indeed a requirement. So the question is WHOSE works? The answer is the works of Christ.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Some may argue that "eternal life" in that verse is not salvation but the point here is that Paul says that ETERNAL LIFE will be rendered BASED ON WORKS.
So whether one believes it is salvation or not Eternal Life is based on works. So this is why other verses have to be qualified when they talk of works that don't save for example:
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
See in verse 1 we wouldn't need the addition of "pertaining to the flesh" if ALL WORKS were NOT required. But this verse is showing a distinquishing thing that the works spoken of in 4:2 are OUR works (those pertaining to the flesh). So even Paul sets the difference between the WORKS that save and those that don't.
I mean if we want to be true to the written word as it existed as close to its source as possible, we would have to understand that the scriptures are preaching the requirement of Works. It is very pleasant thing to understand.
You misunderstand the Christian UR view. We are all saved BY Christ . . . but we will reap what we sow and fail to repent of . . . "as if by fire."
Thanks, I think(?) -- Does that then mean that Bible references to 'eternal' punishment, torment, fire, etc. .... don't really mean "eternal"? -- I'm not trying to be dense or confrontational ... I would really like to understand the UR position, but, just can't seem to get beyond interpreting 'eternal' as something else. (Nobody, for example, seems to have a problem with understanding that 'eternal life' ... lasts forever (?))
I believe Jesus was talking about "False Prophets" - Matt.7:15
"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not Prophesied In Your Name,
Cast out demons In Your Name,
And done many wonders in Your Name?" - Matt.7:21,22
Thanks, I think(?) -- Does that then mean that Bible references to 'eternal' punishment, torment, fire, etc. .... don't really mean "eternal"? -- I'm not trying to be dense or confrontational ... I would really like to understand the UR position, but, just can't seem to get beyond interpreting 'eternal' as something else. (Nobody, for example, seems to have a problem with understanding that 'eternal life' ... lasts forever (?))
Eternal is not the only misused English word in the Bible . . . but it seems the most contentious because of this divide over a loving God who is just and chastises us appropriately to correct our flaws (refine) according to what we have sown . . . and an evil vindictive unjust God who punishes and torments forever for sins in a short finite life. The life that lasts forever is immortal life. There have been enough threads and repetitious explanations of the aionios versus aidios that I will not repeat them here. Search for posts by RodgerTutt.
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