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Old 04-20-2012, 03:57 PM
 
22,723 posts, read 10,439,583 times
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Default Have you done enough good work?

It is not about whether or not you have produced 30 fold or 60 fold or 100 fold . . . but whether it was produced with love. Quality not quantity.
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Quality, not quantity.
An essential characteristic.
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Old 04-20-2012, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Florida -
4,636 posts, read 3,054,299 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
I figured I should start a thread rather than bring up a side issue on someone elses thread. I have a question for those who believe that "good works" are part of being justified before God. So here's the question. When do you know when you've done enough good works? Is there a minimum requirement? Is there a minimum quota each year? Does it depend on your ability or opportunity? I mean, when is enough good works enough to qualify you for heaven. Does this mean when you reach the gates of heaven, St. Peter looks over your stats, and tells you no dice", cause you just missed it?
Of course, works are not the basis of justification or sanctification ... and there is no quota on works. However, "Works" still have an important place in the Christian faith. For one thing, fruit-producing works validate a believer's professed faith (for the benefit of the believer; God already knows whether faith is real)! This is NOT a doctrine of works! -- However, the notion of resting on the porch and waiting for God to fetch a blessing, is no more scriptural than a legalistic, works-based theology.

One of the more obvious admonitions regarding works is James who said, "Faith without works is dead". Elsewhere, Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey my commands." We are told "You will know them by their fruit" ... and also understand that a "believer's 'works' will be tested by fire ... and if they survive, they will receive a reward."

The key to understanding the place of works, is recognition of the fact that "the work of the Lord... can only be done by the LORD!" He does, however, allow us to participate in 'His work' ... for our benefit! (even though we add nothing). How else are we to grow in faith, but, by acting/living by faith and then seeing God produce fruit through our otherwise fruitless efforts?

Consider the farmer who faithfully believes that God will produce a harvest ... to the extent that the farmer puts the season's seed on the shelf in the barn -- and never plants it. Then, at harvest time, the farmer heads-out to the 'back forty' to harvest the crop that he has 'faithfully prayed for.' Could God produce a harvest without the seed or the farmer's work? --- Of course He could! But, is that the way God 'works?' -- No!, God allows man to plant seed, just as He allows man to convey the Gospel to a lost and dying world .... even though God 'could' do the work without man.
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Old 04-20-2012, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,779 posts, read 9,298,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
If James 2:20-24 is what you're making it out to be then it would go against the "new covenant" which God revealed in Jeremiah 31:31-34 which leaves out any human involvement as to obedience to the law \ good works \ proving oneself worthy.

As I said earlier ... James is just reminding that true faith is a faith that shines. It's one of these situations of where salvation doesn't require good works to be saved, but for those who insist on including it then Jesus points out how bad you failed.
Then there are a whole lot of other passages of scripture that you'll also need to flat out ignore. You might want to begin by taking a black pen and crossing out Matthew 25:31-46, which clearly states that obedience to God's commandments matters a great deal to Jesus Christ. Here's what those verses say:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus Christ will divide those who will "go away into everlasting punishment" from those who will "go into life eternal" -- not merely by the fact that they had faith in Him, but on how they treated their fellow human beings. Now without faith in Him, it wouldn't matter how good they were. They'd still stand condemned. But He is so clear in stating that our actions matter to Him that it is absolutely beyond me how you can deny it.


Quote:
Sure, but it's not to your liking.....

Because you're incorrectly applying James 2:20-24, and stated that "I really don't (in answer to ref Allen893 post) "put your faith in trust in Jesus" shows where Mormonism truly focus in on with this statement:
"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
With such a stance God will reference you to his revealed word from Paul which reads:
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.


Don't tell me it's not to my liking. That's up to me to decide. Somehow I think you're trying to imply that I was saying to Allen that I really don't put my faith and trust in Jesus. If that's what you're doing, twin.spin, that's very unfair of you. I never said that and it is grossly misrepresentative of what I believe.
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Old 04-20-2012, 07:39 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,779 posts, read 9,298,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
I agree.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart" is a good exortation. That is the basis of all things.

Then come our actions. Those actions may have a reward, or suffer loss. James wrote, "show me someone with faith without works, and I'll show you my faith BY my works!" I think there's wisdom in that.


Blessings!
brian
I agree 100% Brian.
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:46 PM
Status: " Attacks only in self defense is more than 1 person's right" (set 8 days ago)
 
9,349 posts, read 4,755,281 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post

Don't tell me it's not to my liking. That's up to me to decide. Somehow I think you're trying to imply that I was saying to Allen that I really don't put my faith and trust in Jesus. If that's what you're doing, twin.spin, that's very unfair of you. I never said that and it is grossly misrepresentative of what I believe.
Well Katzpur ... I didn't have to imply because that was exactly how the conversation went.

Allen focused only on faith only and trust in that \ no good works ... you replied as I know what we both know Mormonism actually teaches. Unfortunatly you slipped up...that's not my fault.
"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
"Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men."
the prophet Spencer Kimball

One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation
the prophet Spencer Kimball

That's right Katzpur.. you spoke the truth about your beliefs about placing your faith in Jesus alone
Originally Posted by allenk893
Just put your faith in trust in Jesus. He died on the cross for ALL humanity. Don't ever forget his sacrifice for your sins. Accept him as your Lord and Savior and the confess he is the son of the Holy God of Israel and you will see Heaven! This is his promise! God bless
Katzpur's response:
I don't want this to sound sarcastic; I really don't. But your post kind of implies that if you have faith in Jesus, you can pretty much live any way you want. Is that really what you mean, or am I misunderstanding you?

  • Just put your faith in trust in Jesus... nothing more
  • believe that He died on the cross for ALL humanity
  • that his sacrifice for your sins is enough for you
  • that by just Accept(ing) him as your Lord and Savior and the confess he is the son of the Holy God of Israel and you will see Heaven!
  • that you really don't believe that This is his promise!
According to the prophet Kimball, the answer is no. You've got to trust in your works.

Last edited by twin.spin; 04-21-2012 at 07:00 PM..
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:36 AM
 
Location: kind of North of the middle of nowhere, FL
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Here is an interesting idea, I do not know how widespread it is in contemporary American Christianity (nor do I want to know) but I was told that the charitable things I am involved with are great "If I am trying to build a utopia on earth" BUT That we should not do that because Jesus will come back some day and "establish a Utopia.(his Kingdom) " Until then , I assume, we are to do nothing? What a grand excuse for neglect !!!!!!
Since I do not believe that Jesus is ever coming back, I thankfully do not have to be bound by a doctrine of procrastination or despondency. I do have responsibility.
as written by Dickens in 1843
"Business!" cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"

I say again: I do not need a religion or a justification to do good. And anyone who does good but has it not in their nature (as in doing it out of obligation) Is a hypocrit.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:31 AM
 
3,555 posts, read 1,566,252 times
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We aren't saved by our "Works".



We are saved by Faith.



Ultimately one is saved/Justified by being Baptized with the Holy Ghost. We than can produce Spirit-Led, Faith-based "Works" which produce everlasting Fruit.

Ephesians 2:8-10

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Greek word of "workmanship" suggests working out something that is already inside. No tree strains to produce fruit. The barrier to the Holy Spirit working in our lives is us - pride of self, pride of life, lust of the flesh.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Romans 6

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Pastors tend to stop here. The problem is the point is only beginning to be made. Text without context leads to false doctrine.

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This is not optional. All that have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into his death. They have been "Purchased". It is a "Work" of God not man.

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Holy Spirit seals the believer (book of Ephesians). We haven't been saved by "Works" and since that is true, we can not be lost by "Works" ('Works" defined as the Mosaic Law - 10 commandments and All <Galatians 3><Exodus12>). We aren't saved by faith in Christ AND never coveting. We are saved by Faith. True faith seals the believer with the Holy Ghost. The "Works" (<Faith-based choices talked about in James 2) done by the Holy Spirit produce fruit. It is evidence that we have indeed been "born again". James is refuting "intellectual" Christianity. Conversion is of the heart not the brain. Those Christians that live faithful lives in the Lord without Covetousness/Idolatry etc will be rewarded. Those that are unfaithful may lose inheritance.

We are helpless to save our selves. We are all as the Thief on the Cross. Grace is unmerited. Freely Given. Undeserved. With this being said, we will Reap what we Sow. Some of the Saved believers will receive reward. Others will suffer loss (1 Corinthians 3) based upon their performance.

There is absolutely no room for any Christian to Boast. Grace is God's answer to Man's Pride. The "Works" that matter are the works done by the Holy Spirit through us living by Faith.

No tree stresses to produce fruit.
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Old 04-22-2012, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
3,120 posts, read 915,885 times
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Not me! Catholic guilt and all....... can NEVER do enough!

While people are hungry and lacking clothing, and lacking shelter, ALL of us have NEVER done enough!
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Old 04-22-2012, 03:40 PM
Status: " Attacks only in self defense is more than 1 person's right" (set 8 days ago)
 
9,349 posts, read 4,755,281 times
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Good post Lee !!
Those who count their works for part or all of their being saved will be judged as filthy rages.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



We preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
1 Corinthians 1:23


For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18








Last edited by twin.spin; 04-22-2012 at 03:50 PM..
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