Have you done enough good work? (Messiah, belief, Jesus Christ, Holy Ghost)

[ahigherway]

Originally Posted by LargeKingCat

Here is an interesting idea, I do not know how widespread it is in contemporary American Christianity (nor do I want to know) but I was told that the charitable things I am involved with are great "If I am trying to build a utopia on earth" BUT That we should not do that because Jesus will come back some day and "establish a Utopia.(his Kingdom) " Until then , I assume, we are to do nothing? What a grand excuse for neglect !!!!!!
Since I do not believe that Jesus is ever coming back, I thankfully do not have to be bound by a doctrine of procrastination or despondency. I do have responsibility.
as written by Dickens in 1843
"Business!" cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"

I say again: I do not need a religion or a justification to do good. And anyone who does good but has it not in their nature (as in doing it out of obligation) Is a hypocrit.

There are those who do not see Jesus come back yet. And there are those who do.


blessings,
brian

[Katzpur]

Moderator cut: delete

I have never believed, much less stated, that I really don't believe that we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, and that I believe instead that it's not Him we need to trust in, but our own works. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[chuckmann]

Originally Posted by lee9786

We aren't saved by our "Works".

We are saved by Faith.

Ultimately one is saved/Justified by being Baptized with the Holy Ghost. We than can produce Spirit-Led, Faith-based "Works" which produce everlasting Fruit.

Ephesians 2:8-10

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Greek word of "workmanship" suggests working out something that is already inside. No tree strains to produce fruit. The barrier to the Holy Spirit working in our lives is us - pride of self, pride of life, lust of the flesh.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Romans 6

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Pastors tend to stop here. The problem is the point is only beginning to be made. Text without context leads to false doctrine.

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This is not optional. All that have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into his death. They have been "Purchased". It is a "Work" of God not man.

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Holy Spirit seals the believer (book of Ephesians). We haven't been saved by "Works" and since that is true, we can not be lost by "Works" ('Works" defined as the Mosaic Law - 10 commandments and All <Galatians 3><Exodus12>). We aren't saved by faith in Christ AND never coveting. We are saved by Faith. True faith seals the believer with the Holy Ghost. The "Works" (<Faith-based choices talked about in James 2) done by the Holy Spirit produce fruit. It is evidence that we have indeed been "born again". James is refuting "intellectual" Christianity. Conversion is of the heart not the brain. Those Christians that live faithful lives in the Lord without Covetousness/Idolatry etc will be rewarded. Those that are unfaithful may lose inheritance.

We are helpless to save our selves. We are all as the Thief on the Cross. Grace is unmerited. Freely Given. Undeserved. With this being said, we will Reap what we Sow. Some of the Saved believers will receive reward. Others will suffer loss (1 Corinthians 3) based upon their performance.

There is absolutely no room for any Christian to Boast. Grace is God's answer to Man's Pride. The "Works" that matter are the works done by the Holy Spirit through us living by Faith.

No tree stresses to produce fruit.

Just for clarification, Lee, are you a "faith alone, no good works necessary" kinda guy? Or, are you saying that good works alone cannot gain one eternal life?

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by chuckmann

Just for clarification, Lee, are you a "faith alone, no good works necessary" kinda guy? Or, are you saying that good works alone cannot gain one eternal life?

First define "works". Paul is talking about "Works of the Mosaic Law". James is talking about Faith-based Works. He specifically talks about Abraham's faith in the resurrection of Issac.

What Justifies the believer is Faith alone (Romans 4,5) being baptized with the Holy Spirit which "seals"/purchases the believer. A Regenerate believer produces faith-based, spirit-led "Works"/<<Choices which produces fruit.

The faith saves. The works are testimony for the faith that saved. Grace is unmerited. undeserved. We can never "earn" it.

Can a sealed/purchased born-again believer receive the Grace of God in vain?

2 Corinthians 6:1
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Matthew 25

14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Luke 9:25
For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

The Parable of the Talents is talking about the Judgment of Purchased Born-again believers at the Judgment seat of Christ (1 Corinthians 3) not of unbelievers at the Great White Throne (Revelation).

"Works" have no basis for our Justification but for inheritance. Esau, Reuben, etc lost their inheritance. We can too.

Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

We indeed will reap what we sow based upon our works. Fruitful lives will receive a blessing. Thorns and briers will be rejected. Apparently there will be those that are Saved and yet rejected due to unfaithfulness.

[chuckmann]

Originally Posted by lee9786

First define "works".

Matthew 25:34-40 (New International Version)


34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

This was the mission and the practice of the first century Christians, those who knew Jesus or knew those who knew Jesus.

That is what I mean by "works"

It seems to me that you are complicating an issue which is fundamental to the message of Jesus, a message He states so elegantly. Which is why I asked for the clarification.

[trettep]

Originally Posted by lee9786

First define "works". Paul is talking about "Works of the Mosaic Law". James is talking about Faith-based Works. He specifically talks about Abraham's faith in the resurrection of Issac.

What Justifies the believer is Faith alone (Romans 4,5) being baptized with the Holy Spirit which "seals"/purchases the believer. A Regenerate believer produces faith-based, spirit-led "Works"/<<Choices which produces fruit.

The faith saves. The works are testimony for the faith that saved. Grace is unmerited. undeserved. We can never "earn" it.

Can a sealed/purchased born-again believer receive the Grace of God in vain?

2 Corinthians 6:1
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Matthew 25

14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Luke 9:25
For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

The Parable of the Talents is talking about the Judgment of Purchased Born-again believers at the Judgment seat of Christ (1 Corinthians 3) not of unbelievers at the Great White Throne (Revelation).

"Works" have no basis for our Justification but for inheritance. Esau, Reuben, etc lost their inheritance. We can too.

Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

We indeed will reap what we sow based upon our works. Fruitful lives will receive a blessing. Thorns and briers will be rejected. Apparently there will be those that are Saved and yet rejected due to unfaithfulness.

Lee would you agree that Faith without works is dead as James says?

If so, then do you believe Dead Faith can save you?

[ahigherway]

If grace can not be "earned," then it has been freely given to everyone, right?


Blessings,
brian

[jghorton]

Originally Posted by ahigherway

If grace can not be "earned," then it has been freely given to everyone, right?


Blessings,
brian

Right ...but, it's also like a present all wrapped-up with a pretty bow. One can open the present and truly enjoy the gift ... or simply conclude that they like having a present whenever they desire it ---- and keep the un-opened present stored in the 'closet' for that purpose.

Grace is a marvelous gift that we do not earn, merit or deserve. But, just because we have it within our grasp, ... does not mean that we truly 'enjoy and benefit from it abundantly'. Relationship with God is something we do not have, simply because God offers it.

[ahigherway]

Originally Posted by jghorton

Right ...but, it's also like a present all wrapped-up with a pretty bow. One can open the present and truly enjoy the gift ... or simply conclude that they like having a present whenever they desire it ---- and keep the un-opened present stored in the 'closet' for that purpose.

Grace is a marvelous gift that we do not earn, merit or deserve. But, just because we have it within our grasp, ... does not mean that we truly 'enjoy and benefit from it abundantly'. Relationship with God is something we do not have, simply because God offers it.

Is God an Indian-giver? (with all respect for Indians)


Blessings,
brian

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by trettep

Lee would you agree that Faith without works is dead as James says?

If so, then do you believe Dead Faith can save you?

I don't believe there is something called "dead faith". One either has faith or they don't, and it is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-10). Revelation comes through the Holy Spirit which "seals" the believer eternally "until the day of redemption" (Paul), Forever (the Lord). The act of Justification is 100 percent God's work not mans.

James is talking about intellectual Christians. The "Works" he's talking about is faith-based "Works". << Translate this as choices. If one says they believe, but there is not evidence of a transformed life, than this is evidence they have not been "born again".

We can not escape choices. A regenerate heart from being born again will produce faith based Works/Choices.

All the confusion comes from attempting to understand a Spiritual book with a intellectual mind.

The "Works" that will not be burnt on the day of Judgment are only what we've allowed the Holy Spirit to do through us (through denying self) which in result will Glorify God. (1 Corinthians 3)

All Charity/Works that are fleshly will be burnt. If it does not glorify God it does not account for anything. If we are attempting to "Work" to gain acceptance for Justification before a Holy God than we are attempting to earn what we've been freely given. This is what Paul means in Galatians by "falling from Grace". We've driven off course of what Grace is. We can't deserve it. We can never earn it. This is offensive to Mankind. It hurts our PRIDE.

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Key point. All that are working for their Grace is not reckoned of grace but of debt. Debt produces wages. God is not our debtor. We are HIS! Therefore it is freely given. Grace is God's demonstration of Love for us. It's important not to misrepresent it. It was written on a wooden cross in Judea 2000 years ago.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

God has reconciled man to him. Man can do nothing to reconcile himself to God - except believe on whom he sent - the Lord Jesus Christ in God's Works. Once we do this, we then can allow him to produce Spirit-led Works through us which will abide for reward on Judgment Day because it will Glorify God.