If you don't believe in Universal Reconciliation/Salvation... (agnostic, disciple, Christ)
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This is a tired old error and misrepresentation of Christian Universalism. WE WILL REAP WHAT WE SOW, period. That does NOT mean eternal torment or torture. It means exactly what we sow. We can repent and lessen the consequences in "love of God and each other" daily. But love is the key in which God's Cosmic Symphony is played. ALL unloving behavior and attitudes will reap unpleasant consequences as they are refined out as dross in the consuming fire of God's love after death. We can achieve cover in Christ's love for us all if we follow His instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't.We ALL have the "mind of Christ"(Comforter) . . . but we don't all use it.
It seems I have stumbled deeper into the rabbit hole, curious-er and curious-er! Now you say that God DOES punish people?? If anyone is misrepresenting UR, it's you, because you've been telling me this whole time that God is too loving to punish anyone, and that all verses in the bible about punishment or hell are simply lies.
Is it the agape love of God to cause a man to reap what he has sown? Are you sure that lines up with what you believe about the unambiguous nature of God who ONLY forgives ONLY shows mercy ONLY loves? That would mean God would have to do something unpleasant, barbaric or even savage to repay each man for what he has done. That's exactly what you keep arguing against.
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The justice you refer to is a human construction based on vengeance . . . not love. It is simply not of God, period. Agape love defines good and evil, right and wrong . . . God defines the consequences and refines out the dross in His all-consuming love. It is not complicated and requires no special excuses or rationalizations. Unlove is Evil . . love is Good.
Well which is it, is justice a "human construction" or does "God define the consequences"? It's only one or the other. And if it's true that God defines it, then what are the consequences to sin as defined by God? It seems you believe that GOd is ONLY forgiving/merciful/loving, and so therefore the consequences of sin would be love mercy and forgiveness. The consequences for living upright before the Lord or living in sinful rebellion are the same. If God punishes sinners, then he is not following the agape love rules that are written in Mystic's heart of hearts. I am only repeating what YOU have told me here...
[It] appears he was altering their perceptions, not merely expanding on their thoughts? If it helps you understand, go and learn what this means: "For I desire mercy, not Sacrifice." Make an attempt to read it a few times without any bias, perhaps it won't be as confusing? I am not asking you anything, it is merely a question to help you comprehend the hypocrisy:
"For love and hate, cannot cohabitate."
Sorry I don't have time to play mind games with someone who doesn't want to speak plainly. I'm here to discuss truth and the Word of God. The idea that a God of love cannot possibly punish wickedness is just shallow argument that relies entirely on applying man's definition of love to a Holy God. I think you would benefit from the perspective of Tozer's "knowledge of the Holy" It is only .99 cents for the kindle app Amazon.com: The Knowledge of the Holy eBook: A.W. Tozer: Kindle Store
It seems I have stumbled deeper into the rabbit hole, curious-er and curious-er! Now you say that God DOES punish people??
He didn't say that God punishes people. It is telling that you make the leap from "we reap what we sow" (natural consequences) to "God punishes", though.
No matter what anyone says to the contrary, reading the bible is a matter of cherry picking for everyone. The goal, aisi, is to pick the good cherries, and leave the rotten ones behind.
That's akin to saying, believe what you want! Which to me is ultimately what universalism is. I disagree entirely, as I've been saying the whole time, finding the truth takes considering the entire counsel of scripture. Just because you cherry pick for yourself doesn't mean EVERYONE else does.
Sorry I don't have time to play mind games with someone who doesn't want to speak plainly. I'm here to discuss truth and the Word of God. The idea that a God of love cannot possibly punish wickedness is just shallow argument that relies entirely on applying man's definition of love to a Holy God. I think you would benefit from the perspective of Tozer's "knowledge of the Holy" It is only .99 cents for the kindle app Amazon.com: The Knowledge of the Holy eBook: A.W. Tozer: Kindle Store
There is a huge difference between correcting; and that of eternal, unending or everlasting punishment.
Discussing is one thing, telling me or anyone else what to believe or what will benefit them is another.
BTW- that was free, it cost you nothing, neither does this:
The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion) or eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (age-during or abiding, which is the word used)kalasin (punishment - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with punishment.
That's akin to saying, believe what you want! Which to me is ultimately what universalism is.
You're confusing 2 different issues (apples and oranges) -- Christian Universalism and the question of biblical inerrancy. Many CU's (or UR's as they are often referred to) are also biblical inerrantists, although I believe many who participate on this particular forum are not.
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I disagree entirely, as I've been saying the whole time, finding the truth takes considering the entire counsel of scripture. Just because you cherry pick for yourself doesn't mean EVERYONE else does.
You and every other inerrantist out there wants to believe they don't cherry pick. And yet you all manage to believe very different things about what the "whole counsel of scripture" declares to be the truth.
He didn't say that God punishes people. It is telling that you make the leap from "we reap what we sow" (natural consequences) to "God punishes", though.
Telling that what, I believe what the Bible says? Thank you that's an excellent complement to receive.
Please tell me though, what are the "natural consequences" to sin, and what scripture backs that up? Mystic said we will reap "exactly what we sow"... so.. the rapist gets raped, the murderer gets murdered? If not that then what? Is "natural consequences" something caused by nature or by God?
Telling that what, I believe what the Bible says? Thank you that's an excellent complement to receive.
You do enjoy putting words in people's mouths, don't you? First you say Mystic said something that he did not. Now you are thanking me for saying something that I didn't say. It is telling that you change the written word to say what you want it to mean. That's just another way of cherry-picking -- something that you said you don't do.
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Please tell me though, what are the "natural consequences" to sin, and what scripture backs that up? Mystic said we will reap "exactly what we sow"... so.. the rapist gets raped, the murderer gets murdered? If not that then what? Is "natural consequences" something caused by nature or by God?
Let me ask you this ... Have you never experienced any negative consequences when you "sin" (however you define that)? Like when you were little and your mom said not to play with a razor blade, but you did anyway because it was so pretty and shiny (guilty as charged ). I sliced my finger pretty good that day. Guess what ... my mom didn't punish me. But it sure hurt. Do you think God cut my finger, or was it a natural consequence of playing with something that I'd been warned not to?
You're confusing 2 different issues (apples and oranges) -- Christian Universalism and the question of biblical inerrancy. Many CU's (or UR's as they are often referred to) are also biblical inerrantists, although I believe many who participate on this particular forum are not.
No I am saying that anyone can create any doctrine by doing what you say (cherry picking, keeping what you like, ignoring what you don't like)
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You and every other inerrantist out there wants to believe they don't cherry pick. And yet you all manage to believe very different things about what the "whole counsel of scripture" declares to be the truth.
That must be why you can accuse me of cherry picking when you don't know the first thing about me. It MUST be true if you say it is. I can only speak for myself, but just because people arrive at a different conclusion is not proof that they are cherry picking. While we are all imperfect, I think we will be much closer to the truth when considering the entire Bible instead of ignoring the parts we don't like. I'm not cherry picking or ignoring any verses to make my case, I'm sorry if that makes you so uncomfortable that you simply have to deny it in your own mind.
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). I sliced my finger pretty good that day. Guess what ... my mom didn't punish me. But it sure hurt. Do you think God cut my finger, or was it a natural consequence of playing with something that I'd been warned not to?
