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Old 04-30-2012, 03:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Pslam 22 is the Messianic pslam that is speaking from Jesus' perspecive while on the cross.
So when we come to verse 27, He is not meaning that all the families of the earth will turn back to Him?
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
So when we come to verse 27, He is not meaning that all the families of the earth will turn back to Him?
As long as there are other verses that explicitly speak to the fact that "all" is not to mean "all inclusive" when it comes to who is saved, then one must understand what verse 27 is speaking about in such a way that doesn't make verses like John 3:36 not true.

So... from the commentaries that talk about Psalm 22:27, since John 3:36, Romans 2:7-8 is the truth; it is then we must keep Psalm 22:27 in that context .

It should be noted that in the OT God confined the salvation message to the people of Isreal. Because of Isreal's rejection, verse 27 come to be understood that "all the families" as subjective to all those who would come to believe ... not all inclusively.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
As long as there are other verses that explicitly speak to the fact that "all" is not to mean "all inclusive" when it comes to who is saved, then one must understand what verse 27 is speaking about in such a way that doesn't make verses like John 3:36 not true.
Having all people saved does not make John 3:36 not true.

John 3:36 says that when you don't believe, you will not see life. Yet when you do come to believe, then you do see life. No problem. Likewise with John 3:18. It says that people who don't believe are condemned already, but people who do believe come into (eonian) life.

No conflict. We all were unbelievers, we all were condemned already. Yet we come out of that condemnation. That is what happens when people turn back to God and Psalm 22 tells us all will turn back to God.

No need to limit 'all', otherwise it wouldn't say 'all'. I see it as you have the context backwards - instead of using John 3:36 to try to change the meaning of Psalm 2:27, instead use Psalm 2:27 to understand John 3:36.

You are like the Calvinists who say Jesus didn't die for everyone.

Quote:
So... from the commentaries that talk about Psalm 22:27, since John 3:36, Romans 2:7-8 is the truth; it is then we must keep Psalm 22:27 in that context .

It should be noted that in the OT God confined the salvation message to the people of Isreal. Because of Isreal's rejection, verse 27 come to be understood that "all the families" as subjective to all those who would come to believe ... not all inclusively.
Yet that was part of the veil of the OT, because in the NT we learn that salvation is for all - both Gentile & Jew. We are even told all Israel will be saved, but not before the full number of Gentiles are saved. That is everyone.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:32 PM
 
Location: NC
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Man's will is only free as his surroundings, environment, circumstances, and influences let it.

Regardless, this does not change God's promise to Abraham. He promised ALL will be blessed. Not "offered" to be blessed. The blessing is that all will be saved by Christ: that is the gospel that was pre-announced to Abraham, and told again by the angels in Luke 2:10 - it is good news for all people. That is why Christ came - to save sinners, to save all people. That is the good news
Amen. And He has been made heir of all. God bless and peace.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:37 PM
 
Location: NC
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Hi Katie, would you respond to my posts on Romans 8, Ephesians 1, and 1 Corinthians 15, when you get a chance?

If you believe that you could not judge God for consigning people to an eternal hell for not loving him and that this is love, then why would be wrong for God to return all of His creatures to Himself? We are not on the same level as God. He is our Creator and the owner of all, isn't He? This is His world.

This is agape love - to do what is best for those who are loved and those who are lost are said to be blinded, sick, held captive, ignorant and in need of a Savior, a deliverer. Opening the eyes of the blind, healing the sick, releasing the captives, enlightening the ignorant, and saving the lost is love, Katie. And have you ever heard of tough love?

Would it be wrong for a parent to do everything within his or her power to deal with a rebellious teenager, in love, to bring about a change in his or her will? Is this wrong? God is so much greater and His love is so much deeper and more powerful than the love of a parent who has a rebellious teenager. His love never fails. He knows what it will take to bring a person to repentance. His word will not return void.

It was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself. (Colossians 1) He is reconciling us to Himself. He is not reconciling Himself to us. God bless and peace.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 04-30-2012 at 09:17 PM..
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:11 PM
 
1,566 posts, read 943,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Having all people saved does not make John 3:36 not true.

John 3:36 says that when you don't believe, you will not see life. Yet when you do come to believe, then you do see life. No problem. Likewise with John 3:18. It says that people who don't believe are condemned already, but people who do believe come into (eonian) life.

No conflict. We all were unbelievers, we all were condemned already. Yet we come out of that condemnation. That is what happens when people turn back to God and Psalm 22 tells us all will turn back to God.

No need to limit 'all', otherwise it wouldn't say 'all'. I see it as you have the context backwards - instead of using John 3:36 to try to change the meaning of Psalm 2:27, instead use Psalm 2:27 to understand John 3:36.

You are like the Calvinists who say Jesus didn't die for everyone.

Yet that was part of the veil of the OT, because in the NT we learn that salvation is for all - both Gentile & Jew. We are even told all Israel will be saved, but not before the full number of Gentiles are saved. That is everyone.
Nice post. Also look at the context of Psalm 22:27. How many can avoid going down to the dust? None. How many can keep his own soul alive? None. No exceptions to this. So all without exception will worship the Lord.

Psalm 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
It should be noted that in the OT God confined the salvation message to the people of Isreal....
Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:08 AM
 
1,566 posts, read 943,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yet that was part of the veil of the OT, because in the NT we learn that salvation is for all - both Gentile & Jew. We are even told all Israel will be saved, but not before the full number of Gentiles are saved. That is everyone.
The veil is in the reading of the OT not in the OT (2 Cor 3:14). Look at the book of Romans and see how much Paul used the OT to prove his case. He used the OT to prove that salvation never had anything to do with being Israel by physical decent. It was always about being the seed by faith in Christ.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:10 AM
 
359 posts, read 157,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
God is not 'obliged' to save anyone or give anyone eternal life.
We can't force Him to do anything. Agreed.
But be aware that includes saving saints. The whole Christian religion is based on believing God will do the things He promised. If we can agree God keeps His word we automaticly agree He is obliged to do certain things. Not because we force Him to so, but because of His honesty and inabilty to lie.
So God is 'obliged' to save.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:44 AM
 
359 posts, read 157,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
The doctrine of universal reconciliation (UR) essentially says: Trusting in Jesus Christ as one’s personal savior from the just ‘death wages’ of sin is just one of countless ways that one can have Salvation and eternal life. …. Another (equally good way (according to UR), is to ignore, reject or not trust in Jesus Christ and -- instead trust in anything or anyone … “since all will ultimately be saved to eternal life anyway.”
Trust?
It's the UR people that have trust in the capabilities of Jesus.
It's the ET cult that believes God gave all things in Jesus' hands; desired to save everyone; even send His Son to teach mankind and make them find the the narrow gate; but satan doesn't like that, so he starts decieving. God desires 100% to be saved. Satan desires 100% to be lost. The ultimate result?
God/Jesus saved 2%, Satan doomed 98%.
So who do you trust.....
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