Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Exactly. That is the good news! Some would make the good news to be, "You have to make a wise decision or else." By asking if it can happen after someone dies, is to completely misunderstand the gift of salvation. It means they see it as something they have to earn (whether they call it that or not). That doctrine means you have to help save yourself. The true good news is that Jesus does the saving.
I will simply say you are misrepresenting the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I will leave you too to your folly.
Have you ever looked up the meaning of destruction? The places where that Greek word is used?
Just quoting myself from a few (not so) relevant posts:
KJVLuk 15:8-9 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
KJVLuk 15:4-6 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
KJVLuk 15:11-32 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
.....
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
KJVMat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
622 avpo,llumi apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
Meaning: 1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose
684 avpw,leia apoleia {ap-o'-li-a}
Meaning: 1) destroying, utter destruction 1a) of vessels 2) a perishing, ruin, destruction 2a) of money 2b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
Two verses with a different translation of the same word. The meaning of the word according to Strong's is also very similar.
I would say the meaning should be exactly the same.
The coin parable is clear. The coin was lost. Obiviously it was not destroyed otherwise the women couldn't have found it. The coin wasn't even damaged because that would have made it useless and the woman won't have rejoced of something of no value.
Would the shepard be happy if his sheep was destroyed (eaten by wolves)?
How can a destroyed prodical son return?
Considering that doesn't Mat 7:13 simply teach that many will get lost because it's very easy to get lost?
Lost prodical son. Lost coin. Lost sheep. And... lost people
The first 3 are found within a few verses. Why should we then assume those in Matthew are suffering forever?
The extact number of many also depends on what it is refering to.
But all interpretations show the 5% are saved is wrong.
5% is not many of 100%.
100 stars is just a fraction of the number of stars in the universe. So not many.
99 sheep of 100 is many but still the 100th sheep was searched for..
If we read that the the road to destruction is wide and many find it then many means 95%
If Jesus comes to save many it means 5%
In a way Jesus is the narrow 5% road and satan is the wide 95% road.
Satan owed 100% 0f the road and Jesus was only able to reclaim 5%.
About the narrow road is said that few shall find it. "find" is an activity of the believer.
Does that mean salvation is in our own hands? That one sheep couldn't find the flock either. Perhaps didn't even tried to. But that's not important because the parable tells us the shepherd decides he is going to find that sheep.
--> Shepherd decides how many are lost. Not the sheep.
--> The parable also tells us any shepherd will go searching. No questions asked.
The woman in the parable of the lost coin is about a woman searching for a totally passive coin. The coin didn't even make itself lost. Neither did it wanted to be lost or found. When the woman found the coin she was very happy.
--> The coin had zero input on it's fate.
The prodical son sorta rejected his father. He choose to be cut of. The way he spend his money shows me he clearly was on the wide road. And that road financially completely destroyed him. Did his father reject him after this destruction/death?
No he was extra happy when the son returned.
--> The last chance is never revoked.
Shepard=owner of sheep. Woman=owner of coins. Father=owner of son.
They all were sad when their "thing" was lost. They all celebrated when it was found again.
So to me that show no matter how sloppy Father was when He lost the majority of His coins on the wide road; He'll eventually find them again.
So I think many things can be explained in different ways. And as isolated 'facts' the various explanations can be accepteble. But when when all those fact are grouped together only one conclusion can be drawn....
I wonder how the coin, sheep and son parable can be ETified.
Coin.
=> The coin has no will to get lost or get found.
=> The coin isn't even aware it's lost.
=> No action of the coin is required. The coin is found (dragged) by the lady
=> Reason for celebration.
Sheep.
=> It's always the shepherd that's blamed when a sheep is lost.
=> It's the shepherd that starts to seek the sheep. No the other way around.
=> The shepherd doesn't punish the sheep. No he even carries (drags) the sheep to the flock.
Prodical son:
=> The son did rebel and did things agains his father's advise and will.
=> He experience a rough time and figured the ways of his father are not that bad afterall.
=> He returns and it's party time.
Toughts:
=> The wide road parable can't be explained in such a simplistic way but it can't contradict the other 3.
=> Coin and sheep are actively searched for. Elect?
=> What if the son would have died before got home?
==> No chances after death according to ET and ED.
===> The father actually states his son was dead and came back alive...
Unware, helpless or rebelion... all eventually are welcomed with great joy.
Coin=Sheep=Prodical son=We
Lady=Shepherd=Father of prodical son=God/Jesus
I'm missing wrath and lava....
Great post, Whitewings! God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 05-01-2012 at 02:42 PM..
The parable of the wedding descibes how Christ goes to no end to persuade people to come to Him, and how they refuse Him time after time.
================================================
“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
“Then he sent some more servants and said, â€Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
“But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them.
The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
“Then he said to his servants, â€The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. He asked, â€How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend ?’ The man was speechless.
“Then the king told the attendants, â€Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Hey pcamps, I agree with pretty much what you are saying here, I just don't call it free will!
You are right... why do Katie and others think sin has so much power over our "free" will, yet God's grace is not given that same consideration?
Romans 5
20And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound, 21that even as the sin did reign in the death, so also the grace may reign, through righteousness, to life age-during, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Grace did overabound!
No need to ask psamps why I think what I think. I'm here, so fire away. Direct your comments to me.
Hi Katie, every knee will bow in adoration and reverence according to the definition of the word and the way that it is used in other places of scriptures. Their confessing tongues will acknowledge, agree that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
God will be all in all, Katie, after all are made subject to Him, including His enemies.
Yes Jesus is head of the church and He has been made heir of all things.
Christ is all in all now, in His church, yet God is to become all in all, when all things are made subject to Him.
And Paul, speaking of spiritual gifts, which are given to christians, those who are saved:
I did not say that Christ is all in all, Katie, now. I shared the scriptures which show that eventually God will be all in all.
Romans 8:18-24
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
*hope=epis=expectation
What does the creation mean, Katie? Paul is speaking of God's ultimate to deliver the creation/creature from corruption. The creation will experience the glorious freedom of the children of God. This is clearly revealed.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then comes the end, when (Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For "He has put all things under His feet."But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him (The Father) is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to (Jesus), then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
All thins are to be put into subjection to Jesus. All, no one is excluded. Death is the last enemy to be made of no effect. No one will remain in a death state forever, Katie. God will ultimately be all in all.
Ephesians 1:7 In [g]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He [h]lavished on [i]us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He [j]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is,the **summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. (NAS)
Eph. 13Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
5having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved,
7in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,
8in which He did abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, 10in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in Him (YLT)
**summing up = anakephalaioomai= to gather together again in one, to reunite under one head (mid. voice as in Ephesians 1, Key Word Study Bible
It is very clear that the goal of God is to reunite all things in Christ, all things in heaven and all things on earth.
If God wills that all men be saved, and His will must be accomplished, then all men should be saved right now. Why aren't they? Because they reject Jesus. Not all are saved, nor will they be if they don't obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Believers are a kind of first fruits in God's plan of salvation, Katie. All are not going to come to Him now because it is a process. There are the first fruits and then there is the harvest when all are made subject to Him so that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15). Believers, the elect, the sons of God will be instrumental in bringing this about. God is already in the church, and Jesus is the head of the church, His body. Eventually the creation will be delivered from the slavery of creation and changed into the glorious freedom of the glory of the children of God. The promise is for all of creation. All things in heaven and upon the earth will be in Him, even those who are dead, now. Death will not reign forever, because Jesus came to abolish death. Jesus has been made heir of all. (Hebrews 1) God bless and peace.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then comes the end, when (Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For "He has put all things under His feet."But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him (The Father) is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to (Jesus), then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
The same all things which are put under Him (not just the church, but all things) are the same all things made subject to Him (not just the church) so that God will be all in all (in all things) This goes along with the creation being delivered and changed into the glorious freedom of the children of God and this goes along with the reuniting of all things in Jesus Christ.
Thanks to the apostle Paul for revealing this to the church as revealed to Him by the Lord. God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 05-01-2012 at 03:17 PM..
The mainstream fundamentalist church message is heavily leaning towards what happens beyond the grave. You would be hard pressed to find a post that talks about experiencing the salvation of God in the here and how. And at a guess it is because it doesn't experience it in the here and now, so it must mean in the future
Agree, pcamps. God bless and peace.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
