The UR message is Satan's timeless lie ... "Surely you will not die" (traditions, Deuteronomy)

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

I agree. That's my whole point.

If sure sounded like you were saying something else while putting God on trial.

[Zero 7]

Mikelee81:
The only way "Christianity" fits into their little ideology is if Christ died for all humanity.....

Thanks Mikelee81, couldn't have said it any better myself.

Romans 5:8

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

[Illuin]

Precisely Eusebius!

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN … for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:1-6)

I have talked with so many preachers who argue that when Paul states that "God WILL have ALL men to be saved" he means that God "wishes" or "would like" for all men to be saved, and then, of course, these folk are always quite certain that what God "wishes" or "would like" to be really stands very little chance of ever being fulfilled. How foolish! How arrogant to give man's will more authority and power than God's Will!

The Plan of God - God's overall Plan of the ages makes no logical sense unless ALL are reconciled; unless ALL are saved.

Jesus said;

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME" (John 12:32).

He says "ALL MEN." If His proclamation is not true, if He is not strong enough, and purposeful enough, and loving enough to draw every spirit on earth and throughout the universe to Himself, then He has told a lie. If He can, but won't, then He is a mean-spirited, vindictive, sadistic tyrant. And if He can't, then He's not God! The entire Word of God makes no sense unless ALL are saved.

If God is only going to save a portion of humankind and not ALL, that means that there are limits to God's mercy. If there are limits to God's mercy, then the Word of God, which says that "His mercy endures forever," is a lie. The false doctrine that states there is a limitation of God's mercy discredits God and defeats His Gospel. The limitation of God's mercy makes the disobedience of Adam more powerful and enduring than the OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST. The limitation of God's mercy means that the FALL of the FIRST ADAM (Adam) is more powerful than the VICTORY of the LAST ADAM (Christ).

If the blindfold of tradition were to be removed, people would realize that nothing Jesus and Paul said makes any sense whatsoever unless Jesus reconciles ALL men unto Himself, and He saves ALL. In fact, there is NO GOSPEL without it! How can one say that the Advent of Jesus as Messiah was a blessing of grace to the world, when in fact, according to traditional Christian dogma, less people will be saved and more people will be damned after the Advent of Jesus, than there would have been if Jesus never came at all! It's ridiculous! It's nonsense!

Of course, then add the wicked, pagan doctrine of eternal torment to the mix and you end up with what we have today.... a big mess! Ten thousand divisions and denominations of Christianity that are in total confusion! Mystery! Babylon The Great! The Beast that "looks like a lamb [the Lamb of God - i.e. - looks Christian], but it spake as a dragon" (Revelation 13:11). Who else but a FIRE and BRIMSTONE breathing DRAGON would breathe "hot air" out of his mouth, pronouncing a sentence of everlasting FIRE and BRIMSTONE as punishment for the lost? How absurd! It spake as a dragon indeed!

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

In Romans 1-3 Paul is describing the problem with all mankind.

Correct.

Romans 1 is to Pagan man - the Creation is enough to endict him.
Romans 2 is to the Moral man
Romans 3 is to "religious" man - specifically the Jew the ultimate example

Romans 3

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Who's being "justifed freely by his grace?" Those who BELIEVE! Not those that don't believe.

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Who is the propitiation for? Those who BELIEVE! Not those that don't believe.

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Justifier of Who? Those who BELIEVE! Not those that don't believe.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The Law is of Faith. What about those who do not have faith? They aren't following God's Law of Faith. They aren't "Justified".

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Once again Faith is the exercising component God is using to Justify an individual before the Throne of God. If one does not have faith, they are not Justified. They are not saved.

[quote]In Romans 4 he describes how that SOME of all mankind are justified. In Romans 5 Paul returns to the problem with all mankind: Due to ADAM and Adam only, due to His sin (not due to the sins of all mankind) death entered into all mankind and because of that death entering into all mankind, all sin (see Romans 5:12).



Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

What happens to those not "justified by his blood?"

John 3:39
He thatbelieveth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If one is not Justified in Christ, they are not saved. Jesus Christ himself says they shall not see "LIFE"! << How much clearer can it be said?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Those who believe have everlasting life. They have passed from death unto life. Those that don't believe will come into condemnation. All I did was repeat what the Lord said.

Mark 16:15-16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Pretty clear. A child could understand it. No need to go to Dr. ______ to explain UR theology.

As for Romans 5


Romans 5

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who is this talking to? Those Justified by Faith. Not those that are not Justified. As was pointed out, those not Justified have the "wrath of God abiding on them", are "condemned", are not "saved of wrath through him".

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Those that don't believe - that are DEAD according to the Lord Jesus Christ - are "enemies" of God. Those that believe have been reconciled through Jesus Christ, and will be saved by his life.

All we're doing is building upon what we've already covered.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Justification is for many not ALL by the Grace of God.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Once again it is MANY not ALL.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

It says ALL not Many, but it just got done saying multiple times it is MANY not ALL people. Well we'd have a contradiction if this were the case wouldn't we, and since we know that God does not lie we can apply this verse to believers when it is referencing "all" as this is written to believers.

So how fair is that that all mankind get death because of what Adam did? How can God be righteous with this arrangement? We, of Adam's progeny, did nothing to deserve death entering into us because we did not sin in the similitude of Adam (see Romans 5:12 onward). We got what we got due to what Adam did. We didn't have to do anything to get what we got from Adam's one act.

We are condemned by our own trespasses. The sin nature was passed onto us through Adam, but WE are responsible for OUR sin.

Luke 13:2-6

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Before we go further, do you see this?

Why don't YOU see it? You are saying people do not have to repent through Jesus Christ to see LIFE.

That is not what the Scriptures say.

Jesus Christ defines the Gospel...

John 3

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

They didn't come to the Light. The "Light" is Jesus Christ.

[Eusebius]

Mikelee,

1. Did Paul, the apostle for the nations, i.e., the nations' apostle, write to us what Luke wrote?
2. That some did not come to the light does not mean those same never will come to the light.
3. John 3:39 was written prior to Christ dying, so what were those Jews supposed to believe when they believe ON Him? It doesn't say they never ever ever never ever will see life. Those who believe on Him get age-during life. Those who do not believe on Him do not see [age-during] life. That's the point.

Concerning Romans:

1. Is Paul allowed to go from the broad spectrum of "all mankind" to the narrow spectrum of "believers" back to the broad spectrum of "all mankind in Romans 5?
2. How is it possible for ALL MANKIND to be made sinners due to what Adam did but the same ALL MANKIND are not allowed to be made righteous due to what Christ did?

Please, please answer me directly concerning these questions. I really need to know what you believe about these things before we venture further.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

How is it possible for ALL MANKIND to be made sinners due to what Adam did but the same ALL MANKIND are not allowed to be made righteous due to what Christ did?

Because of the unrighteousness of men, who exalt themselves.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Eusebius
How is it possible for ALL MANKIND to be made sinners due to what Adam did but the same ALL MANKIND are not allowed to be made righteous due to what Christ did?

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Because of the unrighteousness of men, who exalt themselves.

Really, Jerwade?

So, are you saying unrighteous men who exalt themselves are more powerful than Christ and God?

Your premise does not really work well with Paul's in Romans 5.
In 5:12,18,19 all mankind are neutral recipients of what two men did.

All mankind didn't have to be unrighteous or exalt ourselves to get what Adams one act gets all mankind.

Likewise, for the "thus also" in 5:18,19 to work, all mankind also do not have to be righteous and not exalt themselves to get what they get due to what Christ did.

Adam's act is not more powerful than Christ's act.

[Illuin]

Originally posted by Mikelee81
We have a choice to love him.

The Word of God says otherwise:

"No one is able to come to Me UNLESS the Father Who sent Me ATTRACTS and DRAWS HIM and GIVES HIM THE DESIRE to come to Me." (John 6:44)

"Wherefore, I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed: and that no man CAN SAY JESUS IS LORD, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Corinthians 12:3)

"You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU" (John 15:16).

"According as HE HAS CHOSEN US in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world has BLINDED THE MINDS OF THEM WHICH BELIEVE NOT, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ … should shine UNTO THEM" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

Did God know that Man given free will would fall?

Where in the Word of God does it state that Man is given free will?

That teaching is a figment of the imagination of the false church system. In fact, the Bible teaches precisely the opposite. It tells us, "It is NOT of him that WILLS or of him that runs, but of GOD that shows mercy" (Romans 9:16)

Life neither begins or ends by choice and free will. What about your own physical birth? Did you have any say in whether or not you wanted to be born? What did you have to do with it, Mike? You were not consulted in the matter; you were absolutely passive in it; you had nothing whatsoever to do with it. You did not have a choice as to where or when you would be born. You had no choice as to what kind of a home or family you would be born into?" You were not even consulted. The Lord God brought you into existence and ordained your path without you having any say whatsoever. This fact alone refutes any and all claims that Man has free will. He never did!

Also, being that God has perfect foreknowledge, and He knew EVERYTHING that would, and will ever happen long before the Earth was created, He knew about those who would not accept Him (according to you) before He created them, yet He still created them anyway (without their consent). So if your twisted doctrine of eternal punishment and free will were true, God created billions of people for the sole purpose of torturing them in Hell for eternity, since He knew they would reject Him before He created them! What nonsense! What a horrible blasphemy!

If it were left up to man he would NEVER BELIEVE, for man is totally depraved, totally incapable of that which is good. Left on his own to make a decision for Christ, without first being given life and faith by an act of God, man would never of his own "free will" come to Jesus. "You will not come to Me, that you might have life" (John 5:40)

And yet Scripture emphatically says, "It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy" (Romans 9:16)

Was there not a time when you were unwilling to come to Christ? Since then you have come to Him. Are you now prepared to give Him all the glory for that (Psalms 115:1)? Do you not acknowledge that you came to Christ because the Holy Spirit brought you from unwillingness to willingness? Or do YOU take the credit? Which is it?

"No one is able to come to Me UNLESS the Father Who sent Me ATTRACTS and DRAWS HIM and GIVES HIM THE DESIRE to come to Me." (John 6:44)

I would hope you are wise enough to give God the credit considering what Jesus declares in John 6:44 (above). And if you give God the credit for you coming to Christ, then why wouldn't that be the case for everyone else? You didn't CHOOSE God, He CHOSE you!

"You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU" (John 15:16)

"Wherefore, I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed: and that no man CAN SAY JESUS IS LORD, BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT." (1 Corinthians 12:3)

I would hope you aren't arrogant enough to believe that is was your decision making power that saved you, and not God's power.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Because of the unrighteousness of men, who exalt themselves.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Really, Jerwade?

So, are you saying unrighteous men who exalt themselves are more powerful than Christ and God?

Read it again with clarity of mind, not a preconceived ideology.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Read it again with clarity of mind, not a preconceived ideology.

Read Romans 5:12,18,19 again and ask God to open it up to you.
It says nothing about anything all mankind does or does not do
to get what they get from Adam and Christ.