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Old 04-25-2012, 04:58 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,009,029 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You people are quick to use expressions such as 'lighting the unbeliever up like a torch,' and such things as that. The Bible says that the unbeliever will spend eternity in the lake of fire which is also called the outer darkness among other things.
I haven't heard that expression but I'll have to remember it! So are you implying you don't believe it's a literal fire? You know, a literal fire big enough to hold most of mankind would be bright and not dark at all, so how could they both be literal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The beast and the false prophet are men who will have been alive and conscious in the lake of fire for a thousand years before Satan joins them, and it is said that they will be tormented without rest forever.
So then do you think the devil was right when he said, "You will not surely die?" You are saying they would be tormented alive forever. Alive is the opposite of dead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

Universalists deny, ignore, or dismiss these things because in their arrogance they refuse to believe what the Bible which is the word of God says about it.
Hmmm....That's what I think you people do.

Oh, and your post didn't answer my question that you were supposedly responding to which was, "Can you name one righteous person with upstanding character who tortures people just because they don't know him?"
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:01 PM
 
9,418 posts, read 4,902,424 times
Reputation: 1026
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You people are quick to use expressions such as 'lighting the unbeliever up like a torch,' and such things as that. The Bible says that the unbeliever will spend eternity in the lake of fire which is also called the outer darkness among other things.

Daniel says that the unbeliever will be resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

The apostle Paul states that the unbeliever will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord.

2 Thess 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7] and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9] These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10] when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-- for our testimony to you was believed.

The demons know that they will be tormented in the lake of fire.

Matt 8:28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29] And they (the demons) cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

Jesus Christ Himself made the following statement.

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; ... 46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The apostle John stated the following in Revelation.

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The beast and the false prophet are men who will have been alive and conscious in the lake of fire for a thousand years before Satan joins them, and it is said that they will be tormented without rest forever.


Now the Bible teaches eternal punishment which will consist of eternal separation from God in the lake of fire which is the second death, which itself is spiritual death perpetuated into the eternal future, disgrace and everlasting contempt, and eternal torment.

Universalists deny, ignore, or dismiss these things because in their arrogance they refuse to believe what the Bible which is the word of God says about it.
Mike,
There is a reason why Jesus warns about false Christs and false prophets Matthew 24:24 Mark 13:22 that will come in the near future of his saying those words and deceive many people. If it didn't matter, then why the warning....

Not to long ago we celebrated the fact that Jesus decended into hell to proclaim his victory over Satan. To deny hell \ everlasting death ... is to deny Jesus' reason for dying on the cross and decent into hell and ultimatly for ressurecting.

If UR is true... Jesus could have died and rose going immediatly to heaven and just waited around for the re-education process .
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:05 PM
 
12,665 posts, read 6,547,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
CHRISTIAN Universalists all know and believe that Christ is the ONLY Way to the Father, period. To suggest otherwise is a lie. The different beliefs about the timing of salvation are irrelevant . . . but the author of it is not . . . Jesus Christ. NOTHING we do has any bearing whatsoever on our salvation . . . including your "precepts and doctrines of men." It is Christ alone who achieved our salvation and reconciled us to God. We play no part in it, period. What we do play a part in is our individual sanctification through "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. The "do nothing just believe once and you are forever OK, . . . and repentance is not necessary" is misguided and interferes with the need we have to "love God and each other" daily.
First you called the mention of the various beliefs of Universalists mentioned in the OP a lie. Now you say that the various beliefs are irrelevant meaning that you know there are various beliefs, and yet when they were pointed out, you accused the OP of being a liar.

No one is saved until they place their non-meritious faith or trust in Jesus Christ. This is necessary to receive the gift of eternal life. The Bible states this over and over. And to deny that is a lie.

Futhermore, 'Christian Universalism' is an oxymoron. There is nothing Christian about it as it denies the true gospel and presents a false gospel.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:36 PM
 
12,665 posts, read 6,547,675 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I haven't heard that expression but I'll have to remember it! So are you implying you don't believe it's a literal fire? You know, a literal fire big enough to hold most of mankind would be bright and not dark at all, so how could they both be literal?
Whatever the exact nature of the fire, the torment is real. Theologians differ as to whether the fire is literal or is simply a word used to express the eternal judgment the unbeliever will be under in that place.

Quote:
So then do you think the devil was right when he said, "You will not surely die?" You are saying they would be tormented alive forever. Alive is the opposite of dead.
Satan is the father of lies. God told Adam that if he ate the fruit he would surely die that day. And he did. He immediately died spiritually. As a result of spiritual death, Adam died physically much, much later.

The Bible speaks of different categories of death. There is physical death which is the separation of the soul from the body. There is spiritual death which is separation from God in time. A person is born physically alive but spiritually dead. There is the second death in which the unbeliever who has been resurrected and therefore physically alive in a resurrected body designed for the lake of fire, is thrown into the lake of fire forever. The second death is spiritual death perpetuated forever. The other categories of death don't need to be mentioned here.


Quote:


Oh, and your post didn't answer my question that you were supposedly responding to which was, "Can you name one righteous person with upstanding character who tortures people just because they don't know him?"
I bypassed your question and went to the heart of the matter. Attempts to introduce analogies in an attempt to undermine the clear teaching of Scripture are meaningless. And how you feel about what the Scriptures say is irrelevant. The Scriptures are clear that the unbeliever will be eternally tormented.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:46 PM
 
12,665 posts, read 6,547,675 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Mike,
There is a reason why Jesus warns about false Christs and false prophets Matthew 24:24 Mark 13:22 that will come in the near future of his saying those words and deceive many people. If it didn't matter, then why the warning....

Not to long ago we celebrated the fact that Jesus decended into hell to proclaim his victory over Satan. To deny hell \ everlasting death ... is to deny Jesus' reason for dying on the cross and decent into hell and ultimatly for ressurecting.

If UR is true... Jesus could have died and rose going immediatly to heaven and just waited around for the re-education process .
Satan has introduced various lies, many false gospels, of which Universalism is one, into the world in order to deceive who he may. Universalists have fallen for the lie and are being used by Satan to promote the deception.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:51 PM
 
22,870 posts, read 10,802,057 times
Reputation: 3860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
First you called the mention of the various beliefs of Universalists mentioned in the OP a lie. Now you say that the various beliefs are irrelevant meaning that you know there are various beliefs, and yet when they were pointed out, you accused the OP of being a liar.
Stop lying, Mike. What is irrelevant is the timing of the salvation. The relevant belief is that Christ is the one who does the saving. The same is true of all the other trivialities you and your mentors focus on in your "precepts and doctrines of men" as if they were of the slightest consequence to Christianity.
Quote:
No one is saved until they place their non-meritious faith or trust in Jesus Christ. This is necessary to receive the gift of eternal life. The Bible states this over and over. And to deny that is a lie.
You haven't the vaguest idea what that means or how we actually believe ON/INTO Christ as opposed to believe things ABOUT Him.
Quote:
Futhermore, 'Christian Universalism' is an oxymoron. There is nothing Christian about it as it denies the true gospel and presents a false gospel.
You also haven't the vaguest idea what the true Gospel of Christ is either. You are so deeply lost in the "precepts and doctrines of men" created by your mentors the Holy Spirit cannot get through the nonsense to reach your heart with the truth.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:16 PM
 
12,665 posts, read 6,547,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Stop lying, Mike. What is irrelevant is the timing of the salvation. The relevant belief is that Christ is the one who does the saving. The same is true of all the other trivialities you and your mentors focus on in your "precepts and doctrines of men" as if they were of the slightest consequence to Christianity.
You haven't the vaguest idea what that means or how we actually believe ON/INTO Christ as opposed to believe things ABOUT Him.You also haven't the vaguest idea what the true Gospel of Christ is either. You are so deeply lost in the "precepts and doctrines of men" created by your mentors the Holy Spirit cannot get through the nonsense to reach your heart with the truth.
You're quick to accuse people of lying. That alone puts the lie to your claims about you loving your neighbors.

I know exactly what it means to believe in Christ and I Know what the gospel is, and I'm not going to argue about it.

You deny or ignore that the Bible repeatedly states that a person must place his faith in Jesus Christ in order to have eternal life. You falsely believe that all men are already saved. They are not and the Bible clearly shows that.

People need only review your posts to see how unscriptural your beliefs are. Such as your belief that God is not supernatural.

As for me, I am not going to waste my time going back and forth with you. Your own posts show your serious lack of understanding of the word of God. Other people can argue with you. I have better things to do.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:41 PM
 
Location: USA
5,525 posts, read 2,017,883 times
Reputation: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Universalists love to say that the early church held to the doctrine of UR.

Is it more important to you what the "early church" believed, or what the bible says? (And, of course, I know your answer is the bible. )
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:28 PM
 
4,070 posts, read 2,178,993 times
Reputation: 954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I am more concerned about what God/The Holy Spirit says. Have you ever cried out to God with all your heart to ask Him if He will save all who He created and then listened for the answer regardless of whether it fits into your current interpretation of the Bible? I did, except I didn't ask him "if He would," but "why he would not," since I did not have any notion whatsoever that it was even a possibility. I don't know if He answers if someone simply wants to figure out doctrine, but He answered me when I cried out because of a deep concern for the people who I thought were going to hell. His answer confirmed that He is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we can ask or think.
Me too.
It is a time in my life I will never forget.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,075 posts, read 1,548,208 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I believe we have the inner voice/God's Holy Spirit to help us recognize what the written word means.

Here's an analogy. A child comes home from school and finds a note on the kitchen table written by his father. It says, "You can find me in the backyard shooting the dog." Will the child panic and run outside crying and begging his father not to shoot the dog? Not if he knows his father, knows his father loves the dog, and knows he's a photographer. See the difference? Knowing his father was important in understanding the note. Someone might even tell the child, "Your dad is going to kill the dog. I read the note and it was clear. That settles it." But the child, knowing the father, doesn't buy it.
I loved that analogy sis can't rep you either so hope the up will do.
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