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Unread 04-26-2012, 01:04 AM
 
5,958 posts, read 1,769,953 times
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"With their lips they honor me, but their heart is far from me; for they follow the teachings of men who fear me, demanding that others do the same."
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Unread 04-26-2012, 04:16 AM
 
Location: RI
16,985 posts, read 7,545,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
"With their lips they honor me, but their heart is far from me; for they follow the teachings of men who fear me, demanding that others do the same."
So True Jerwade. The timeless lie is Twofold "believe in Jesus you go to heaven" and "if you don't you go to hell". Neither of these lies can be found in the bible. Jesus did not teach either of them nor do the epistles. Eternal Life is not about escaping the fundamentalists interpretation of hell to go to heaven.

Salvation is "Today" . God always meets us with salvation today.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 05:32 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Mr. Horton,

why do you post statements about the doctrine of the reconciliation of all souls to God, that are not true?

The Pharisees also accused Jesus falsely, and stirred up the public against Him.

Condemnation, "torment," "hell," "everlasting punishment" are all concepts that UR proponents acknowledge. Their understanding of these terms is quite different from the literal "you are going to be thrown in a fire that will never be put out"-type doctrine that you say is part of the message of Jesus Christ.

Yes, all mankind will be saved through the Son. That salvation has been put in place 2,000 years ago, and won't change no matter what you do. (Aisi, of course.)

False accusations, no matter where they come from, is the work of the devil, not of the Almighty.


Blessings,
brian
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Unread 04-26-2012, 05:46 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,305 posts, read 2,260,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You people are quick to use expressions such as 'lighting the unbeliever up like a torch,' and such things as that. The Bible says that the unbeliever will spend eternity in the lake of fire which is also called the outer darkness among other things.
Hi Mike,
If the "lake of fire" is also called "the outer darkness," then we MUST conclude that this "fire" is not your typical bonfire. After all, fire also brings light. You can't have fire and darkness together.
Right??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Daniel says that the unbeliever will be resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

The apostle Paul states that the unbeliever will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord.

2 Thess 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7] and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9] These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10] when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-- for our testimony to you was believed.

The demons know that they will be tormented in the lake of fire.

Matt 8:28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29] And they (the demons) cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

Jesus Christ Himself made the following statement.

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; ... 46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The apostle John stated the following in Revelation.

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The beast and the false prophet are men who will have been alive and conscious in the lake of fire for a thousand years before Satan joins them, and it is said that they will be tormented without rest forever.


Now the Bible teaches eternal punishment which will consist of eternal separation from God in the lake of fire which is the second death, which itself is spiritual death perpetuated into the eternal future, disgrace and everlasting contempt, and eternal torment.
All of the scriptures you quote here are spiritual in concept. They aren't physical places where people are walking around screaming and pulling their hair out. It's not literal, but symbolic. Torment is real. It's just not torment that comes from setting someone on fire. The fire is symbolic, just as God is a consuming fire and Jesus is the Door. Symbolism. We Americans don't like it, but it's part of life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Universalists deny, ignore, or dismiss these things because in their arrogance they refuse to believe what the Bible which is the word of God says about it.
Personally speaking, I don't deny, ignore or dismiss concepts of "hell" and "torment" and "chains of darkness." They are very important concepts, spiritual and symbolic in nature.

Can you make a chain made out of darkness, Mike?
Of course not. They are not literal chains. It is darkness (confusion and lack of understanding) that "chain" us or "lock" us into place so that we cannot grow. To be "chained up" means to be blocked.
Darkness blocks the soul from learning more about God. All around God, there is darkness. Read Psalm 18. Lots of symbolism and spiritual significance there.

And Psalm 97:
"The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof. Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne. A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled."

LOTS of spiritual significance and beauty. Not literal, symbolic.


Blessings,
brian

Last edited by ahigherway; 04-26-2012 at 06:10 AM..
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Unread 04-26-2012, 06:01 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
31,711 posts, read 9,708,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You people are quick to use expressions such as 'lighting the unbeliever up like a torch,' and such things as that. The Bible says that the unbeliever will spend eternity in the lake of fire which is also called the outer darkness among other things.
I tire seeing the urs, atheists etc throw around those kinds of claims in an never ending effort to misrepresent believers. Hell is being eternally separated from God. That means you will be also be separated from everything good that God created.

- There is no nature, no trees, no animals, no sun.
- There is no love, no love for your children, no love for parents, no love for friends, no love for God, and noone to love you.
- There are no people, just you and your regret and self-pity.

When you reject God, He will give you exactly what you asked for and withdraw everything He created from you, and you will be left with nothing but cold, dark loneliness.

Outer darkness indeed. When He withdraws His light, there is darkness, when He withdraws his warmth, there is cold, when he withdraws his goodness, there is despair, when He withdraws his love and his people, there is sorrow, weeping, hatred and loneliness.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 04-26-2012 at 06:21 AM..
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Unread 04-26-2012, 06:15 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
2,363 posts, read 878,537 times
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I rather face the Lord and say " i really thought you Love and sacrifice was enough to save the world" that have to say " sorry lord, but i thought your sacrifice was not enough for all".
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Unread 04-26-2012, 06:19 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,305 posts, read 2,260,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torpedos View Post
I rather face the Lord and say " i really thought you Love and sacrifice was enough to save the world" that have to say " sorry lord, but i thought your sacrifice was not enough for all".
Worth a "super"-rep!

Blessings!
brian
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Unread 04-26-2012, 06:24 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
31,711 posts, read 9,708,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torpedos View Post
I rather face the Lord and say " i really thought you Love and sacrifice was enough to save the world" that have to say " sorry lord, but i thought your sacrifice was not enough for all".
You can challenge God all you want, but I do not think you will win that debate.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 06:49 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,244,861 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You can challenge God all you want, but I do not think you will win that debate.
Can you believe it? Wow! These people are out of their minds. Or they simply don't truly believe.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
31,711 posts, read 9,708,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
Can you believe it? Wow! These people are out of their minds. Or they simply don't truly believe.
They reject God, while trying to use the Bible to prove that God should save them anyway. Like I said, they will not win that debate. Trying to play word games with the Bible is a losers game.
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