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What I told the other poster applies to you as well. You are lacking in understanding of the Scriptures. You do not rightly divide them. You refuse to listen. You like to use insults and putdowns in an attempt to strengthen your arguments.
I fault no one for studying the Old Testament. It is a part of the word of God. It is not in opposition to the New Testament. But the New Testament sheds light on the Old Testament. Divine revelation is progressive. What is not clearly revealed, or not revealed at all in the Old Testament is seen more clearly in the New Testament. The destination of both the believer and the unbeliever is more clearly seen in the New Testament.
The Bible is clear that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. The Bible does not teach soul sleep or annihiliation of the unbeliever.
More than adequate proof has been given which proofs that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. If you refuse to acknowledge that fact, that is your problem.
I will go back to what I said before. There is no point in wasting my time on trying to get through to you. You prefer your bias rather then truth. Keep your bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
No...The Old Testament sheds light on the New Testament...This is what Yeshua taught from and it is what the Apostles taught from...All the Parables that Yeshua used have a reference in the Old Testament...So, we must go there to understand...This is the problem with New Age Christianity, it sets itself down in the NT and rarely ventures into the OT...That is where all the meat is...
As I stated in post #250, I am done with this thread having given more than sufficent proof that soul sleep is a false doctrine. However, I think I should clarify what I said about the New Testament shedding light on the Old Testament because I don't want what I said to be misunderstood. The Old Testament is Christ concealed while the New Testament is Christ revealed. Both the Old and the New Testaments need to be studied. For instance, if you want to understand the book of Hebrews you need to understand the sacrificial system of the Old Testament. To better understand the book of Revelation, you should first understand the book of Daniel. On the other hand, the Old Testament says nothing at all about the dispensation of the church. The church-age was a mystery not revealed in the Old Testament. For New Testament doctrine you need to study the New Testament epistles. And while the plurality of God can be seen in the Old Testament, the tri-unity of God is revealed in the New Testament. The topic of this thread is that the believer goes to heaven after death and therefore man's soul is immortal. On the subject of what happens after death, the Old Testament passages are not nearly so clear as they are in the New Testament. People such as yourself who promote the false doctrine of soul sleep attempt to interpret the clear passages of the New Testament on the subject in the much less clear light of the Old Testament, which is the opposite of what you should be doing. And in so doing you have gone into doctrinal error.
Now having clarified what I meant, I am as I have said, done with this thread.
In the end it is about being restored to the Father. It is not a matter of whether or not someone is a believer in Jesus Christ, right? Just because I believe that we are dead in the grave until the resurrection should not cause strife for anyone. When we are raised, it will be as if we have gone immediately to be with the Lord. Life and death are in His hands. God bless and peace.
You make no sense. No one will be restored to the Father without Christ. Jesus said it, "No one comes to the Father except through Me."
And the Father verified what Jesus said over and over again before Jesus ever said it.
PS 2:11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
PS 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.
You make no sense. No one will be restored to the Father without Christ. Jesus said it, "No one comes to the Father except through Me."
And the Father verified what Jesus said over and over again before Jesus ever said it.
PS 2:11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
PS 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.
You don't know Shana well or you would not have this confusion. I interpret her as saying that whether you believe your soul sleeps until the resurrection or whether your soul is immediately with Christ doesn't impact your faith in Christ to save. If one has to believe correctly every doctrine that we argue about then it is unlikely anyone will be saved. I used to believe we went to heaven immediately when we died. I wanted to believe it because the thought of being dead for x amount of years seemed fearful. But now I see more weight of evidence pointing to the reality (as I see it) that we are not conscious until the resurrection of the body. But it will SEEM instantaneous.
I just do not see much importance of the resurrection if we're enjoying some form of existence without a body. And what is the sense of the judgment if by mere virtue of the fact of our 'location' after death we know our judgment? I guess it's just a formality?
Either way, I sincerely doubt that our fate depends on which scenario we believe and I can't think I would be disappointed if I discover I wasn't correct on this issue.
You don't know Shana well or you would not have this confusion. I interpret her as saying that whether you believe your soul sleeps until the resurrection or whether your soul is immediately with Christ doesn't impact your faith in Christ to save. If one has to believe correctly every doctrine that we argue about then it is unlikely anyone will be saved. I used to believe we went to heaven immediately when we died. I wanted to believe it because the thought of being dead for x amount of years seemed fearful. But now I see more weight of evidence pointing to the reality (as I see it) that we are not conscious until the resurrection of the body. But it will SEEM instantaneous.
I just do not see much importance of the resurrection if we're enjoying some form of existence without a body. And what is the sense of the judgment if by mere virtue of the fact of our 'location' after death we know our judgment? I guess it's just a formality?
Either way, I sincerely doubt that our fate depends on which scenario we believe and I can't think I would be disappointed if I discover I wasn't correct on this issue.
My response was to her statement : "It is not a matter of whether or not someone is a believer in Jesus Christ." That is what puzzled me. I don't need to know her well to read that statement and disagree with it or perhaps I read it wrong. I'm sure she is a fine person but this is an open forum where ideas are shared, disagreed with or embraced.
And you are right, one does not need to fully understand all that happens at death but because the subject matter was brought up and the Bible as much to say about it, it is quite natural to weigh in on the discussion.
I interpret her as saying that whether you believe your soul sleeps until the resurrection or whether your soul is immediately with Christ doesn't impact your faith in Christ to save
Right, this is what I meant. Maybe I did not state it clearly. If you believe that we are in the grave until the resurrection or if you believe that your soul goes immediately to heaven to be with Jesus consciously when you die, is not a matter of your salvation. It (this belief in what happens when we die on this topic) is not a matter of whether or not someone is a believer in Jesus Christ. I believe that salvation is through Jesus Christ. Hope this clarifies. Thanks, ScarletWren. God bless and peace.
Right, this is what I meant. Maybe I did not state it clearly. If you believe that we are in the grave until the resurrection or if you believe that your soul goes immediately to heaven to be with Jesus consciously when you die, is not a matter of your salvation. It (this belief in what happens when we die on this topic) is not a matter of whether or not someone is a believer in Jesus Christ. I believe that salvation is through Jesus Christ. Hope this clarifies. Thanks, ScarletWren. God bless and peace.
No way then why does christ have to gather the curch as in thessaloians. U have to go back to the first usage of soul ( nephesh) in gen. God made the soul so what does gen say. God breathed in to adam the breath and he adam became a living soul. Soul is simply breath life it is what makes you you. So breath life living soul ( nephesh) no breath life no soul or dead soul ( nephesh ki) nothing imortal about the soul when you take your your last breath that it its gone.
No way then why does christ have to gather the curch as in thessaloians. U have to go back to the first usage of soul ( nephesh) in gen. God made the soul so what does gen say. God breathed in to adam the breath and he adam became a living soul. Soul is simply breath life it is what makes you you. So breath life living soul ( nephesh) no breath life no soul or dead soul ( nephesh ki) nothing imortal about the soul when you take your your last breath that it its gone.
Sterling, it is important to compare all passages in which the word soul is used and see how it is used. And it is used in different ways.
The Scriptures make a distinction between the body, the soul, and the human spirit (1 Thess. 5:23; Hebrews 4:12).
Jesus said that man can kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Matthew 10:28] "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Gehenna)
To properly interpret Scripture one must understand less clear passages in the light of passages which are more clear. When Jesus said that man can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, that is about as clear as it gets. The soul survives the death of the body. The last half of that verse which makes reference to both body and soul being destroyed in Gehenna (a reference to the lake of fire) pertains to a future event which will take place after the end of the Millennium at which time all unbelievers will stand before Jesus at the great white throne judgement and be sent into the lake of fire forever. The word translated as 'destroy' is the Greek word 'apollumi' which does not mean that the unbeliever will cease to exist, but that he will be in a lost state of ruination. He will have physical existence forever but will be forever separated from God and in a very miserable state.
In the meantime, people die every day. Physical death is simply the separation of the soul from the body. When the believer dies he goes to heaven. When the unbeliever dies he goes to the torments side of Hades.
In the Revelation given to John by Jesus, he sees in a vision Tribulational martyrs in heaven before the altar. (Revelation 6:9-11, 20:4)
Revelation 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11] And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Some people try to explain away the fact that believers who have not yet been resurrected are clearly shown in heaven in those passages. But let me show you some commentary from theologians regarding Revelation 6:9-11.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary;
6:9 With the opening of the fifth seal John had another revelation of heaven itself and his attention was directed to souls pictured as under the altar and identified as those who had been slain because of the Word of God and the testimony they had maintained. (For ''under the altar,'' see Ex. 29:12; Lev. 4:7.) These are obviously martyrs, mentioned in more detail in Revelation 7. This makes it clear that souls will be saved in the great Tribulation, but many of them will be martyred. 6:10-11. They will cry out to the Lord, asking how long it will be before He will avenge them. In reply each is given a white robe and informed that the Tribulation is not over and that others must be martyred before God's judgment on the wicked and deliverance of the righteous occurs at the Second Coming. This passage shows that the time period is the great Tribulation, but not its end.
Spirits without any substance could not wear robes. The fact that they will be given robes supports the concept that when believers die they are given temporary bodies in heaven which are later replaced by resurrection bodies at the time of resurrection (cf. 20:4). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, pg. 948]
The Expositor's Bible Commentary (A portion of the commentary on Revelation 9:6.)
...and the ''SOULS'' that John saw under the ''Sacrificial Altar,'' are the souls of those who shall perish during that time of persecution. That there is no such thing as ''Soul Sleep,'' and that disembodied SOULS are conscious and can speak and cry, is clear from what John saw and heard, for those ''SOULS'' cried out with a loud voice---''How long, O Lord, Holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our BLOOD on them that dwell on the earth?'' [The Book of Revelation, by Rev. Clarence Larkin, originally published in 1919, pg. 59]
While Revelation 6:9-11 and 20:4 refer to Tribulational martyrs, all believers since the resurrection and ascension of Christ go to heaven instead of to the Paradise side of Hades as they did in Old Testament times.
You asked about the gathering of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 2. The dispensation of the Church will terminate with the rapture or catching up of the church prior to the beginning of the Tribulation. The church will not go through the Tribulation. At the time of the rapture of the church, all believers who have died during the Church Age and who are in heaven will be resurrected, while all living believers on the earth at that time will have their bodies transformed (1 Corinthians 15:51-54).
Man can kill the body. Without the body the soul goes into the 'unseen', cannot praise God, his thoughts perish, etc, as the Old Testament scriptures tell us.
Man cannot kill the soul, this is true. The soul is the life experiences, the personality, the essence of who we are as a result of the spirit giving life to our particular body. God preserves all this within Himself. He knows us very intimately, down to the number of hairs on our head at any given time or moment in our life. Who doesn't have a favorite character, be it from a beloved book or movie, that even though that character died he/she is alive in our hearts when we think of him. As long as I live and am of sound mind, I will remember my mother and in a sense, she is still alive to me during those times. As long as God lives (since He is life there just is nothing but life within God), and chooses to remember us, our souls can be resurrected. No man can erase our lives/soul from God to prevent Him from resurrecting us. God, if it pleased Him, could choose not to resurrect us and therefore we would cease to exist....our soul would die in essence. Since this thread was not about how many will be restored to God, I will not explain why I think He will restore every creature as Paul often stated. I asked God to explain what that passage meant....Man can kill the body but not the soul, and this is what was shown to me. Man has no power to kill beyond restoration/resurrection.
There are just too many other passages in scripture, including statements by Paul that lead to the conclusion that we are not conscious between physical death and resurrection. (David's [not the BODY of David] tomb is with us to this day, said Peter) Paul never stated that departed loved ones were enjoying the companionship of the Lord, he spoke of HOPE. He yearned for the time he would no longer live in a mortal body that experienced mortal trials, pain and sorrows and knew that would happen after physical death, but stated that if the resurrection were not true, we were of all men, most miserable, how could he say that if he thought we would 'float' around heaven, experience the company of our Lord and other 'dead' relatives and friends before the bodily resurrection?
I explained in another thread that I believe the blood crying out is more the conviction of God to exact vengeance in the exact measure He deems appropriate. As a parent could gaze upon the portrait of a child who was murdered and imagine the eyes imploring him to avenge the atrocity inflicted against him/her. And yet, as I mentioned in the other thread, Jesus said to forgive your enemies. He forgave His enemies on the cross. The Lord's Prayer tells us to ask God to forgive US AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US. Stephen asked God to forgive those who participated in stoning him. So, these tribulational martyrs have ignored that particular command and are haranguing God to take vengeance on those who killed them? Are they better than their Lord? No, friends, the blood/souls under the altars are symbols as plainly stated in the beginning of Revelation. I would not want anyone to experience eternal suffering or extinction for some crime against me....whatever God ordains for them ( in His MERCY, which triumphs over JUDGMENT), is sufficient.
And, everyone dies. Not everyone SLEEPS. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God so everyone must die. I hear many people say that there are some who will not die. I fail to see how one can endure a change of flesh without death.
I am confident that God has me tucked into His very 'heart' so that at the right time, He will restore my life.
May the God of All Comfort bless all of you this week!!
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