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Old 04-27-2012, 08:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. The word of God quite clearly shows that man's soul is immortal. The passages already given show that.
The ‘soul’ is not immortal. Such an idea is not found in the ‘bible’, rather the reverse. Here are some biblical references on this subject about the 'soul':
Quote:
§ “The soul who sins shall die” (Ez. 18:4).

§ God can destroy the soul (Mt. 10:28). Other references to souls being destroyed are: Ez. 22:27 (people = nephesh); Prov. 6:32; Lev. 23:30 (person = nephesh).

§ All the “people” (nephesh) that were within the city of Hazor were killed by the sword (Josh. 11:11; cf. Josh. 10:30-39).

§ “...every living creature (psuche). died” (Rev. 16:3; cf. Ps. 78:50).

§ The Hebrew word nephesh translated “soul” is also translated “dead body” in Num. 9:6. “No man can deliver his life (nephesh) from the power of the grave” (Ps. 89:48).

§ Frequently the Law of Moses commanded that any “person” (nephesh) which disobeyed certain laws should be killed (e.g. Num. 15:27-31).

§ References to the soul being strangled or snared can only make sense if it is understood that the soul can die (Prov. 18:7; 22:25; Job 7:15).

§ None can “keep himself (nephesh) alive” (Ps. 22:29).

§ Christ “poured out his soul unto death” so that his “soul”, or life, was made an offering for sin (Is. 53:10,12).
The very fact that the word ‘soul’ is used in such ways show that it cannot be something which is immortal.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:43 AM
 
12,647 posts, read 6,486,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
The ‘soul’ is not immortal. Such an idea is not found in the ‘bible’, rather the reverse. Here are some biblical references on this subject about the 'soul':
The very fact that the word ‘soul’ is used in such ways show that it cannot be something which is immortal.
The Bible shows that the soul is immortal. The very fact that the Bible uses the word soul in various ways, which I pointed out in the original post, supports rather than contradicts that fact.

The immaterial soul survives the death of the body as stated in Matthew 10:28.

The believer's soul goes to heaven at the point of physical death as shown in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

As with the verses above, verses stating that a person's soul departs from the body at death have already been given.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:26 AM
Status: "ask why me ... rather than not why not them" (set 23 days ago)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes Twin. But these particular verses refer to the resurrection of the body. Do you understand that the Bible says that the soul of the believer goes to heaven at the point of physical death?
Yes. The rich man and Lazurus parable is just but one of many examples of that.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Bible shows that the soul is immortal. The very fact that the Bible uses the word soul in various ways, which I pointed out in the original post, supports rather than contradicts that fact.



The immaterial soul survives the death of the body as stated in Matthew 10:28.

The believer's soul goes to heaven at the point of physical death as shown in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

As with the verses above, verses stating that a person's soul departs from the body at death have already been given.
How are you getting an ‘immortal soul’ out of Mat 10:28? V. 28 clearly says ‘God’ is able to ‘destroy’ the soul. How can a soul which you say is immortal be ‘destroyed’? Also read (Isa 53:12, Eze 18:4,20, Psa 78:50, Psa 116:1-8, Mat 26:38.) The ‘soul’ is said to die. The immortality of the soul is Pagan in origin and not taught in the ‘bible’.

According to the ‘bible’, the soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body (see Gen. 2:7). At “death”, ‘God’ takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible) i.e. Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew.
Here are the verses to support my position:
Quote:
Psa. 22:15 Thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
Job 7:21 For now I shall lie in the earth; thou wilt seek me, but I shall not be.
Gen. 3:19 Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecc 3:19 For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Job 3:11-22 Where the wicked cease from troubling, there the weary are at rest.
Psa. 6:5 In death there is no remembrance, in Sheol who can give thee praise.
Psa. 115:17 Dead do not praise the Yahweh, nor do any that go down into silence.
Psa. 88:10-12 Are thy wonders known in the darkness, or thy saving help in the land of forgetfulness?
Isa. 38:18-19 For Sheol cannot thank thee, death cannot praise thee; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for thy faithfulness.
Ecc. 9:10 There is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
Joh. 5:28-29 All who are in their graves.
Dan. 12:2 Them that sleep in the dust.
Isa. 26:19 Ye that dwell in the dust.
In the ‘bible’ the dead are always said to be where their bodies are. The whole idea of some people going to heaven, or are already there, is wrong because the dead are “asleep” waiting resurrection when Jesus comes back as promised in Act 1:11; Act 3:19-21 and 1 Th 4:13-15, 17.

Here are some more Bible verses that support my position:
Quote:
Dan. 12:13 But go your way till the end; and you shall rest.
Joh. 11:11, 14 Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awake him out of sleep.
1 Co. 15:3-20 Most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
1 Co. 15:51-57 We shall not all sleep.
1 Th. 4:13-18 Concerning those who are asleep…fallen asleep.
Act. 7:60, 8:2 When he said this he fell asleep.
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:09 PM
 
463 posts, read 189,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
One of the many false doctrines which is promoted is the belief that the believer does not go to heaven at physical death, but that the soul sleeps, or dies with the body. The idea is that the soul is not immortal. But the soul is indeed immortal and is shown to be so despite claims by many to the contrary. One of the reasons that many claim that the soul is mortal is because of the following passage.
That is correct as far as the so called believers not going to heaven when they die because you are thinking like man and not like God. The son of man is resurrected from his spiritual death by doing what is right and just.Heaven is not seen by anyone after they die physically. You misunderstand scripture and the power of God.

The son of man says; " I am the resurrection, and the life: anyone who believes in me, even though he was dead, he shall live:"(Jn 11:25)

You see it says even though he was dead not even though he dies.The son of man is speaking of those who are dead in spirit, who have faith in him and do what is right and just. He goes on to say "and anyone who lives and believes in me will never die". So once you continue believing and doing the works he did, you can never die, spiritually.

What many do not see is that they are dead, spiritually, because they do not serve the Lord and the son of man by doing what is right and just.

"The heavens and the earth will pass away but my words will never pass."
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:16 PM
 
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2 Timothy 4:6: Apostle Paul describes his impending death - "For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure."

Commentary on this verse -

And the time of my departure is at hand - Greek: "dissolving, or dissolution." So we speak of the "dissolution" of the soul and body. The verb from which the noun (ἀνάλυσις analusis), is derived (ἀναλύω analuō), means to loosen again; to undo. It is applied to the act of unloosing or casting off the fastenings of a ship, preparatory to a departure. The proper idea in the use of the word would be, that he had been bound to the present world, like a ship to its moorings, and that death would be a release. He would now spread his sails on the broad ocean of eternity. The true idea of death is that of loosening the bands that confine us to the present world; of setting us free, and permitting the soul to go forth, as with expanded sails, on its eternal voyage. With such a view of death, why should a Christian fear to die?

With what pleasure he speaks of dying. He calls it his departure; though it is probable that he foresaw he must die a violent bloody death, yet he calls it his departure, or his release. Death to a good man is his release from the imprisonment of this world and his departure to the enjoyments of another world; he does not cease to be, but is only removed from one world to another.

2 Timothy 4:6 Bible Commentary
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:20 PM
 
12,647 posts, read 6,486,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
How are you getting an ‘immortal soul’ out of Mat 10:28? V. 28 clearly says ‘God’ is able to ‘destroy’ the soul. How can a soul which you say is immortal be ‘destroyed’? Also read (Isa 53:12, Eze 18:4,20, Psa 78:50, Psa 116:1-8, Mat 26:38.) The ‘soul’ is said to die. The immortality of the soul is Pagan in origin and not taught in the ‘bible’.
The word translated 'destroy' is...

Perish (622) Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon (Re 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy utterly but not caused to cease to exist.

Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed.

To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).

Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose.

Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the plac of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth'' (Mt 13:42,50).

See Romans 2:9-12 Commentary


Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna - the lake of fire).

That passage says that physical death cannot kill the soul. That passage shows both that the soul is distinquished from the body and that it survives the death of the body. As shown above, to destroy does not have the meaning of cessation of existence but of ruination and uselessness.

As mentioned already, the word 'soul' is used in different ways in the Bible. It is sometimes used for the entire person, and it is sometimes used for the immaterial part of man. God Himself is said to have a soul and passages have been given.

The immortality of the soul is clearly taught in the Bible.

And I have presented passages which SHOW the soul of believers in heaven.


Quote:
According to the ‘bible’, the soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body (see Gen. 2:7). At “death”, ‘God’ takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible) i.e. Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew.
Here are the verses to support my position:
In the ‘bible’ the dead are always said to be where their bodies are. The whole idea of some people going to heaven, or are already there, is wrong because the dead are “asleep” waiting resurrection when Jesus comes back as promised in Act 1:11; Act 3:19-21 and 1 Th 4:13-15, 17.

Here are some more Bible verses that support my position:
Your position is wrong. I already mentioned Gen. 2:7 in the original post and made a point of stating that because of that verse some people, such as yourself, erroneously think that the soul is the combination of the spirit and the body. It is not. The Bible distinquishes between the body, the soul, and the human spirit which I also have already covered.

I wonder therefore if you even bothered to read the original post or made any effort whatsoever to comprehend it.

One of the core beliefs of Christianity is that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. And the reason that it is one of the core beliefs of Christianity is because the Bible teaches it.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9] Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

Absent from the body means that the resurrection of the body is not in view in this passage. Paul, who had previously gone to heaven (see the original post) knew that to be absent from the body meant to be present with the Lord in heaven.

Last edited by Mike555; 04-27-2012 at 02:30 PM..
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:06 PM
 
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Hi everyone I think that there is so much misunderstanding about death and resurrection in the Bible, Not the scriptures but the Bible which is a "translation" of the Scriptures. The scriptures clearly say that the wages of sin is death. We die. It isn't that our body dies and our spirit goes to heaven. We die. There would be no need of resurrection if we never died. Some say the spirit is immortal, at this time only God is immortal, We die. We will be resurrected on judgment day to be judged but until then we are dead and in the grave.

If we never die but the saved go straight to heaven and the unsaved go to hell why would we need resurrection? What about Judgment day , we would not need it judgment has already been given.

I have been told by some who believe we go straight to heaven and I ask why we would need resurrection they say our bodies are what is resurrected. Why would God resurrect a flesh body that can not go to heaven. They say it is then changes into a heavenly body. So what body did we have when we were in heaven before the resurrection and they have no answer.

The verses in Luke about the Rich man and Lazarus is a parable. It is the fifth part of a five part parable that includes, the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son and the unjust steward. This parable explains how Jesus will find all the lost, the first three, how the chosen will make bad choices, the unjust steward, and will be replaced by the gentiles, the rich man and Lazarus. This parable was directed at the Pharisees that were complaining because he was receiving them and eating with them.

The crux of the matter is that when we die we are dead and the dead know nothing. This is really good news because from our point of view we will lose consciousness and in a blink of an eye we will before Jesus awaiting judgment. From our point of view no time will have past no matter how long it has been.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
How do you understand :

Matt 16:26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?

and

Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

and

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
The word soul means a living creature, LIFE, me, myself, flesh or person depending on context.

In the verses you quoted it means:life or flesh.

What did God tell Adam? "If you eat of the tree of the knowledge....you will die."[muwth, physically die]"

What did satan tell Eve? "You will surely not die."

Did Adam and Eve eventually die a physical death? Yes.


Then who's words were the truth? God's or satan's?
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:08 PM
 
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The son of man says;

JN 5;19 Truly I say to you, the son can do nothing on his own, he can only do what he sees his Father doing; for whatever the Father does the son does likewiseFor the Father loves the Son and whatever he does he shows him, and he will show him greater works than these, so that you may be amazed. For just as the Father raises the dead and grants life, so too does the Son give life to whomever He loves. Almighty God judges no one, but has given all judgment over to the son so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Truly I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the One who sent me possesses eternal life and will not come under condemnation, but has passed from death to life.
Truly I tell you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have heard it shall live.For just as the Father has life in himself, so too has he given his son the possession of life in himself,and he gave him power to pass judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

Moderator cut: deleted Anyone who chooses to do His will shall know about this teaching, namely whether it comes from God or I am merely speaking on my own.

Jn 8;28 "When you exalt the son of man you will realize I am and I do nothing on my own, I only say what the Lord has taught me for the One who sent me is with me, He has not deserted me because I always do what pleases Him."

JN 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own, I judge as I hear and my judgment is just because I am not seeking my own will but the will of the Lord who sent me."

Last edited by june 7th; 05-06-2012 at 03:39 PM..
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