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I have been accused of repeating myself. Well, I am going to repeat myself again. You learn through inculcation. Through repetition. So for those of you who have not yet understood that man's soul is immortal, I am going to repeat what I said in post #27 with something added. This concerns Matthew 10:28 and the fact that it shows that man has an immaterial soul which lives beyond the death of the body. Also explained in more detail is the meaning of the word which is translated 'destroy'.
Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna - the lake of fire).
As Matthew 10:28 states clearly and without ambiguity, while man can kill the body, man cannot kill the soul. This means that the soul is distinct from the body and that physical death does not kill the soul. The soul therefore lives on after the death of the body.
Now then, what does it mean that God 'destroys' both soul and body in Gehenna?
The word translated 'destroy' is...
Perish (622) Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon (Re 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy utterly but not caused to cease to exist.
Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed.
To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).
Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose.
Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the plac of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth'' (Mt 13:42,50).
Now here is some additional information on the word Apollumi.
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 622
Original Word
apollumi
Definition
to destroy to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
render useless
to kill
to declare that one must be put to death
metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
The word Apollumi has the meaning of destroyed, but not cessation of existance. It has the meaning of being lost, of being ruined, of being useless.
For example...
Matt 9:17 "Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined (apollumi); but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved." The old wineskin is destroyed, or ruined and therefore useless.
In Luke 15:4 the word Apollumi refers to a lost sheep. "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost (apollumi) one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? The sheep is lost but is alive, not dead.
In Luke 19:10 the word Apollumi refers to the spiritually dead unbeliever who is physically alive. "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (apollumi)." Now understand this. Jesus came to seek that which is lost - apollumi. The reference is to the unbeliever who again while he is physically alive is spiritually dead.
Now if the unbeliever dies without having received Christ as Savior his immortal soul goes into the 'torments' side of Hades (Luke 16:23). But at the end of the Millennium, his body will be resurrected and then after the great white throne judgment he will be sent body and soul into Gehenna - the lake of fire. And that is what Matthew 10:28 is referring to. The unbeliever being destroyed, both body and soul - not in the sense of cessation of existence, but in the sense of being lost, of being ruined, of being useless. Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell (Gehenna - the lake of fire).
While my intent with this thread is primarily concerned with showing that the believer goes to heaven when he dies, to do that it is neccessary to show that the soul is immortal, and Matthew 10:28 which speaks of Gehenna makes the immortality of the soul clear to any honest person.
Now I strongly urge those of you who have shown resistance to understanding that man's soul is immortal to go back through my posts on this thread and actually make an effort to understand the various passages which have been mentioned.
Forget about what the Egyptians and the Greeks believed. Focus on what the word of God actually says.
One of the core beliefs of Christianity is that the believer goes to heaven at the point of physical death. And the reason for that belief is because that is what the Bible teaches.
Unfortunately, some or perhaps most of those who deny that fact will persist in that denial. But for whoever has eyes to see and ears to hear, and a desire for understanding the truth, sufficent information based on the Scriptures has been given for you to understand that if you are a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ you are going to go to heaven when you die physically.
Again, the Scriptures already given show that the soul is immortal. Revelation 6:9-10 shows the souls of tribulational martyrs in heaven during the tribulation.
And I have already covered Ecc 9:5.
I have also already covered the fact that Paul who had been to heaven had the confidence to say 'absent from the body and at home with the Lord.
Man's soul is immortal.
One more time, Mike...common sense, common sense. You must apply common sense when rightly dividing.
First IF man has a soul why did Ezekiel say this? "The soul who sins shall die." [means to perish, literally put to death ].
Now if the OT isn't good enough for you then why did Messiah say the soul can die if it's immortal:
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body (Matthew 10:28).
IF a soul is immortal [cannot die] it could not be destroyed.
Furthermore Note who it is that IS able to kill a soul i.e the person. It's God. So for you to keep insisting our soul cannot be killed you are calling Messiah a liar and putting man on the same level as Messiah who is God in the flesh, and He ALONE has immortality at this point in time.
Also NOTE Messiah said eternal life comes in another 'age.' The next 'age' which begins at the 7th trump.
29 Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come everlasting life (Luke 18:29-30).
Paul taught the same thing:
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:52-54).
IF we already have immortality why will be put it on at the 7th trump?
IF man has an immortal soul then why was Adam expelled from the garden so he couldn't eat of the Tree of Life and live for ever?
IF man has an immortal soul then why did Paul say, "This MORTAL [means able to die a physical death] must PUT ON IMMORTALITY?" When? When Messiah returns at the 7th trump and not one minute before.
Note it's future tense.
Two things from the story of Messiah raising Lazarus back to life:
1.) IF we have an immortal soul where in the story does Messiah call his soul back from heaven?
2.) Messiah had to obviously raised him back to mortal life? How do we know this? If Lazarus was given immortal life...he'd still be around.
Same goes for those who rose from the graves at Messiah's resurrection. They'd also still be around.
And one more and then I am done with this subject. The fact that we are not immortal is right in your face in the most well known passage in the Scriptures.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Last edited by mshipmate; 04-29-2012 at 09:36 AM..
Sorry, but Jehovah God’s word shows the “SOUL†IS mortal. Because the “SOUL†is ONLY a fleshly human, (1Cor.15:45 -And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul). Yes Jehovah created the body, but when he gave Adam the breath of life ,he became a living being, same a soul and human. So I do understand 1 Thess 5:23. Our bodies are the flesh, the soul, is the body which comes to life. The spirit is what leaves the body, and goes back to God. Which is different from the soul! Rachel's soul was depart from her because she died true, the breath of life was no longer there. It didn’t mean another, being also left.
Jesus said at Luke 12:19 “And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry†(he wasn’t referring to anything but himself. It’s him who can eat, drink, and become merry. (Ezek.18:4-the soul that sinneth, it shall die). a soul is a living being , even if many refuse to believe. Jehovah’s words clearly shows this. It’s not something I just want people to believe. Pro.6:30 -Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry. again I post God’s words showing a “soul†is the living body. Without the breath of life which Jehovah put in humans, we wouldn’t be able to come alive.
Also Gehenna isn’t “the lakes of fire†from the book of Revelation. Gehenna was a valley outside Jerusalem, it was named the valley of Hinnom. It was used as a symbol of everlasting death. But King Josiah made sure it was only used for dumping trash, (2 Kings 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech). The lakes of fire isn’t literal, it’s symbolizes total destruction.
Concerning Paul and Acts 14:19, it didn’t say he died, because verse 20 says.. â€he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.†and it didn’t say he went into Heaven. Most likely he was knock unconscious, the stoners THOUGHT, he was dead. Any one who has that Heavenly calling, when die, goes directly to Heaven, as they didn’t do before Jesus died ,(1Cor.15:20-23).
But they accent to Heaven with a spiritual body, since imperfect flesh isn’t allowed in Heaven, (1 Cor.15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption). There’s a teaching which is wrong, if what I believe is wrong, even with scriptural proof, Then I ask Jehovah to show me the truth, which I know he would. And if I choose to try and do his will, he won’t lead me down the wrong path. peace
One more time, Mike...common sense, common sense. You must apply common sense when rightly dividing.
First IF man has a soul why did Ezekiel say this? "The soul who sins shall die." [means to perish, literally put to death ].
Now if the OT isn't good enough for you then why did Messiah say the soul can die if it's immortal:
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body (Matthew 10:28).
IF a soul is immortal [cannot die] it could not be destroyed.
Furthermore Note who it is that IS able to kill a soul i.e the person. It's God. So for you to keep insisting our soul cannot be killed you are calling Messiah a liar and putting man on the same level as Messiah who is God in the flesh, and He ALONE has immortality at this point in time.
Also NOTE Messiah said eternal life comes in another 'age.' The next 'age' which begins at the 7th trump.
29 Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come everlasting life (Luke 18:29-30).
Paul taught the same thing:
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:52-54).
IF we already have immortality why will be put it on at the 7th trump?
IF man has an immortal soul then why was Adam expelled from the garden so he couldn't eat of the Tree of Life and live for ever?
IF man has an immortal soul then why did Paul say, "This MORTAL [means able to die a physical death] must PUT ON IMMORTALITY?" When? When Messiah returns at the 7th trump and not one minute before.
Note it's future tense.
Two things from the story of Messiah raising Lazarus back to life:
1.) IF we have an immortal soul where in the story does Messiah call his soul back from heaven?
2.) Messiah had to obviously raised him back to mortal life? How do we know this? If Lazarus was given immortal life...he'd still be around.
Same goes for those who rose from the graves at Messiah's resurrection. They'd also still be around.
And one more and then I am done with this subject. The fact that we are not immortal is right in your face in the most well known passage in the Scriptures.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Great posts mshipmate, well covered, and yes, common sense!
If one doesn't think or use "common sense" they might conclude "God alone is immortal" means "not only God is immortal"!
Again, the Scriptures already given show that the soul is immortal.
<snip>
Man's soul is immortal.
Just curious, Mike (since I basically agree with this premise) . . . How do you answer those who say this is Satan's claim that "You will not surely die?"
Just curious, Mike (since I basically agree with this premise)
Interesting, and personally its not really a big issue for me. I know a number of URs who believe likewise. I just believe when we die, our next waking moment will be when we are resurrected. Whether that is a millisecond or a millenium - who can be sure. I don't believe we will be floating disembodied spirits though, according to my understanding of the scriptures.
However the problem with Mike's analysis is that he requires we have an immortal soul, that way people get tormented forever.
Quote:
. . . How do you answer those who say this is Satan's claim that "You will not surely die?"
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