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Old 05-01-2012, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Being 'caught up' is a Hebraic idiom for having a vision...If you read Enoch...He was caught up to the Heavens, but still remained in his bed in his house...His sons were instructed to not come in and disturb him until he came out of the house...He was having visions of all levels of the heavens, where afterward he was instructed by Yehovaw to record all that he had seen and teach it to his sons...
The word harpazó - caught up, seized, snatched, is also used for the very real, the very literal catching up of the church at the end of the church-age. The rapture of the church where the church is taken up into heaven (1 Thess 4:17).

The same word is used regarding Paul being caught up into heaven (2 Cor 12:2). Paul may or may not have actually died. But he was caught up into heaven. Not bodily, but either he died and his soul went into heaven, or he had a vision. Either way he heard things in heaven which he was not allowed to speak of. And this undoubtably was a large part of the reason why Paul could say with confidence that to be absent from the body was to be at home with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8).
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
In post #42 I gave a detailed explanation of what Apollumi means.

One of the passages I listed was Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (apollumi)." Jesus came to seek that which is lost - apollumi. The reference is to the unbeliever who while he is physically alive on this earth is spiritually dead. Now in the future when the soul of the unbeliever is taken out of the 'torments' side of Hades and placed into his resurrected body at the end of the Millennium he will again be physically alive and still spiritually dead. And this is what Matthew 10:28 refers to. The spiritually dead but physically alive unbeliever will be thrown into the lake of fire - Gehenna.

The Bible states that death will be abolished (1 Cor 15:26). But the reference is to physical death only. The reason that physical death is abolished is because everyone, both believer and unbeliever will be resurrected. But the lake of fire is said to be the second death. This is because the spiritual death of the unbeliever in time is perpetuated throughout the eternal future in the lake of fire.


A simple reading of Rev 19:20 through Rev 20:10 shows that the beast and the false prophet will have already been in the lake of fire for one thousand years before Satan joins them there. The beast and the false prophet will be thrown alive (Rev 19:20) into the lake of fire at the beginning of the Millennium. Satan is also confined at the beginning of the Millennium, but not in the lake of fire. Rather, Satan will be imprisoned in the abyss which may be a reference to the impassable chasm or pit in Hades which separates what was the Paradise compartment of Hades from what is the 'torments' side. At the end of the Millennium Satan will be temporarily released from the pit to deceive the nations. When the revolution which he incites is immediately put down by God Satan will then be permanently confined in the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are also (Rev 20:10) and they will be tormented forever and ever.

Therefore the beast and the false prophet even after one thousand years in the lake of fire are still alive, still in torment and will continue to be in torment forever and ever. Apollumi does not mean to destroy in the sense of cessation of existance. Daniel 12:2 says that the unbeliever will be resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 'Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life (the believer in Christ), but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt (the unbeliever). The unbeliever in the lake of fire will be in both everlasting disgrace and contempt. He will be in a state of ruin and uselessness and unable to serve the purpose for which he was designed.

But this is after the resurrection of the body. The main purpose of this thread is to show that the soul after physical death and prior to the resurrection of the body continues to exist. I have done that in various posts throughout the thread. My reason for bringing up Matt 10:28 is because it states that the soul survives the death of the body. Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul ; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell (Gehenna - the lake of fire).
So I guess the body is not “destroyed” in the sense of cessation of existence either. Seeing as Matthew 10:28 says ’god’ is able to destroy [Gk. apollumi] both body and ‘soul’ in Gehenna. Mike whatever you believe the ‘soul’ to be, it is clear that whatever happen to the ‘soul’ also happens to the ‘body’ in Gehenna.
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
So I guess the body is not “destroyed” in the sense of cessation of existence either. Seeing as Matthew 10:28 says ’god’ is able to destroy [Gk. apollumi] both body and ‘soul’ in Gehenna. Mike whatever you believe the ‘soul’ to be, it is clear that whatever happen to the ‘soul’ also happens to the ‘body’ in Gehenna.
The body even of the unbeliever once resurrected is immortal and not subject to physical death anymore. But the unbeliever's resurrected body will be different than the believer's and designed for the lake of fire.

The beast and the false prophet as already mentioned in post #60 will have been in the lake of fire alive for one thousand years before Satan joins them there. Obviously since they will have been in torment for a thousand years and that it is said of them that they will be tormented day and night forever, they have not ceased to exist and will not cease to exist. Both the soul and body will exist forever in a state of ruin.

Now as to what the soul and the human spirit are, refer to the following study.

Doctrine of the soul and Human spirit

Bible Doctrine Resource » Doctrine of Soul & Spirit
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It has already been explained that the Bible uses the word soul in different ways. People get stuck on Gen 2:7 and don't bother to learn everything the Bible has to say about the soul. The word soul can refer to the complete person, and it can refer to the immaterial part of man which is separate from the body. Passages have already been given which show this.

God does indeed breathe the breath of life - neshamah into man. He breathed the spark of life into the body of Adam which He had just created, and He breathes the breath of life into every person who is born. But the soul is immaterial and survives the death of the body as Scripture shows.

At physical birth man has a body and a soul. When a person receives Christ as Savior he is given a human spirit. The soul and the human spirit of the believer go into the presence of God at physical death. The soul of the unbeliever goes into the 'Torments' side of Hades as Luke 16 says.





This too has already previously been explained on this thread. They are aware of nothing going on in this life. The soul is conscious in Hades [B](Luke 16)[/b]and it is conscious in heaven (Rev 6:9-11).




It is not a parable. It is a story, but not a parable. What Jesus said is clear and is not representing some hidden truth which those listening to Him could not understand. Hades is not describing heaven and hell - the lake of fire. It is describing the different compartments of that temporary place where Old Testament saints went after death - Abraham's Bosom or Paradise, and that place where unbelievers went and still go - 'Torments'.

Hades consists of at least two compartments. Before Christ was resurrected and ascended one of the compartments was Paradise and is where Jesus told the thief he would be with Him (Luke 23:43). The other compartment is called 'Torments' (Luke 16:23). The two compartments are separated by an impassable chasm (Luke 16:26). This chasm may or may not be the abyss spoken of in Revelation 20:1-3 in which Satan will be imprisoned during the Millennium. It is also possible that Tartarus which currently holds in imprisonment a group of fallen angels which were involved in the Genesis 6 affair may be a separate compartment of Hades (1 Pet 3:18-20; 2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6). This as well has already been covered.
Hi Mike sorry it took so long to get back to you I've been tied up. I like your passion , even though we disagree about the meaning of many of the
passages of scripture.

Rather then just restate my view I will make one point you can respond to. You say that Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable, scripture disagrees. It says very plainly and in many places, such as :

“All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them.” Matt 13:34
“But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…” Mark 4:34

says very clearly that Jesus spoke to the crowds, including the Pharisees, which this parable was aimed at, in parables only. So if this was not a parable the scriptures lie, which they do not do. I think that many time men try to make the scriptures fit their preconceived notions instead of trying to understand them.

Mike we disagree about God's plan but thats OK God has us both where he wants us at this time.
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi Mike sorry it took so long to get back to you I've been tied up. I like your passion , even though we disagree about the meaning of many of the
passages of scripture.

Rather then just restate my view I will make one point you can respond to. You say that Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable, scripture disagrees. It says very plainly and in many places, such as :

“All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them.” Matt 13:34
“But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…” Mark 4:34

says very clearly that Jesus spoke to the crowds, including the Pharisees, which this parable was aimed at, in parables only. So if this was not a parable the scriptures lie, which they do not do. I think that many time men try to make the scriptures fit their preconceived notions instead of trying to understand them.

Mike we disagree about God's plan but thats OK God has us both where he wants us at this time.
Hi Sschulz. My reply to you in post #31 with regard to your statement in post #28 about Luke 16:19-31 not being a parable was that it is not a parable, at least in the nomal sense. I did say that Jesus was illustrating that being rich should not be equated with being righteous. I also said that the reality of Hades is well established in the Scriptures. And it is.

Many theologians think that the great chasm which separates what was the Paradise side of Hades from what is the 'Torments' side of Hades is the abyss spoken of in Rev 20:1-3 in which Satan will be imprisoned for the duration of the Millennium. It is also quite possible that Tartarus is yet another compartment of Hades. Tartarus is a temporary place of confinement for that particular group of fallen angels who were involved in the Genesis 6 affair with the Nephilim. That Tartarus is a literal place is clear from a comparison of 1 Pet 3:18-20, 2 Pet 2:4, and Jude 6. The name Tartarus or tartaroó is actually used only in 2 Pet 2:4, but all three passages refer to the same place.

Whether or not Tartarus is a part of Hades, the fact that some of the fallen angels are even now being held in confinement for the day of judgment should not find people incredulous over the fact that unbelievers who have died are also held in temporary confinement awaiting their day of judgment.

Jesus told the thief that that very day he would be with Him in a place He called Paradise. Since the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ Paradise is in the third heaven as revealed in 2 Cor 12:2-4. But prior to that, Paradise, called Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16:22, was located in Hades. Notice also that Lazarus was carried there by angels. Now in no sense can the grave be considered Paradise. The thief had asked Jesus to remember him (Luke 23:42). Jesus' response to that request would not be, 'today you will be with Me in the grave,' or 'today you will be with Me in death.' No, He said 'today you will be with Me in Paradise.'


In Acts 2:31 King David is said to have looked ahead to the resurrection of Christ. Acts 2:30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31] he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. Two things are mentioned here. Hades and the grave. They are not the same thing. Jesus' soul went to the Paradise side of Hades, and His body went to the tomb.


Hades consists of that part which before the resurrection of Jesus was known as Paradise. It was separated from the 'torments' side of Hades by a great chasm - an impassible pit which may (or may not) be the abyss in which Satan is imprisoned during the Millennium (Rev 20:1-3). And as mentioned, Tartarus may be yet another compartment of Hades.

Now whether what Jesus related is rightly to be considered a Parable or not is not really the issue. What Jesus related about Hades was clear. Theologians differ in whether it should be considered a parable. The Bible Knowledge Commentary which I like to use does call it a parable but still recognizes that what was being related by Jesus tells of the reality of what Hades is like even if the story was only an illustration or picture of that reality. The story does clearly speak of experiences after physical death in a place where the physically dead are conscious and aware.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-01-2012 at 07:19 PM..
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Two things are mentioned here. Hades and the grave. They are not the same thing.
Although, they carry the same meaning:

"One is fictitious, the other is reality."
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The reference is not to eternal punishment. The book of Ezekiel is about national punishment on Israel. The phrase ''the soul who sins shall die'' is about physical punishment, temporal death, physical death. Not eternal punishment.

Jerusalem was to come under divine punishment and the righteous would be spared, but the unrighteous would die physically. Ezekiel was to warn of the impending destruction which was to come.

Regarding Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.'', and Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. What is being said is that each person would physically live or die in the coming national punishment based on his own personal righteousness or wickedness.

Look at an earlier chapter. Ezekiel 3:18 [COLOR="Blue"]"When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.[/color] 19] "Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself. Ezekiel had been commissioned by God to warn both the righteous and the wicked of the impending judgment to come on Israel.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 1233, states... 'Though both the Old and New Testaments clearly indicate the spiritual results of sin, the focus here is on the physical consequences. A wicked person who refuses to heed God's warnings will die for his sin. Since all are spiritually dead from birth, the obvious reference here is to physical death. As Nebuchadnezzar's armies approached, the wicked could expect death at the enemy's hands.'

Those who heeded Ezekiel's warnings and remained righteous could expect to live through the national judgment which God used Nebuchadnezzar to execute.

Now going back to Ezekiel 18:4,20, the people thought that they were suffering for their father's sins and were blaming God of being unjust (Ezek 18:25). There was a proverb going around (Ezekiel 18:2) to that effect and God had to put a stop to it. He told Ezekiel that that proverb was not going to be used in Israel anymore (Ezekiel 18:3). And so even though the consequences of their fathers sins may indeed have long lasting consequences, (a person's decisions can certainly affect others down the road), God told Ezekiel to tell the people their punishment was due to their own sins. That is the point of Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins shall die.

I don't want to go into a detailed account of the national punishment, but 'the soul who sins' in the context of Ezekiel is not referring to eternal punishment at all, but is referring to the physical death of the wicked who did not heed the warning and therefore were destroyed in the national punishment.

Here are a couple of sites which speak to the matter.

Old Testament Salvation and “The Soul That Sinneth” – Part 7 « Amidst The Rubble

You Cannot Keep People Out of Hell | Christian Bible Studies



I have addressed Matthew 10:28 and the meaning of 'destruction' in post #42. I devoted the entire post to it. It doesn't mean what you think it does.



Paul is speaking of the rapture of the church in which the bodies of the dead Church-age believers whose soul's are in heaven are resurrected and the bodies of those believers who are physically alive on the earth are transformed from bodies of corruption and mortality into bodies of incorruptability and immortality. Their souls are already immortal.




Adam's soul was immortal. But when he ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he died spiritually. He was separated from - alienated from God. He was expelled from the Garden of Eden so that he would not eat of the tree of life and live forever in a physical body in a fallen spiritual state.




As explained above, Paul was referring to the resurrection of the body. The soul is already immortal.



The Bible speaks of salvation in three tenses.

1.) The believer has been eternally saved from the penalty of sin at the very moment of faith in Jesus Christ. Eph 2:8-9; 2 Tim 1:9.This refers to the salvation of the soul when a person trusts in Christ.

2.) The spiritually growing believer is being saved from the power of sin in this life. 1 Cor 1:18; Phil 2:12 This refers to experiential sanctification.

3.) The believer will be saved from the presence of sin. Rom. 5:9, 10; 8:24; 13:11; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 1:13, 14; 1 Thess. 5:8; Heb. 10:36; 1 Pet. 1.5; 1 John 3:2, 3 This refers to the future salvation or resurrection of the body. 1 Cor. 15:52-56; 1 Thess. 4.16) and in the rapture of those who are alive at Christ’s coming in the air (1 Thess. 4:17).



The fact is, is that the soul is immortal as has been clearly shown throughout this thread. You do not understand any of the verses which you use in an attempt to refute that fact.

John 3:16 is referring to the fact that the soul those who believe in Christ are delivered from spiritual death at the moment of faith in Christ and will not see the second death in the lake of fire which is not annhiliation, but eternal conscious torment.

I have explained the various categories of death in post #31.
Quote:
The fact is, is that the soul is immortal as has been clearly shown throughout this thread. You do not understand any of the verses which you use in an attempt to refute that fact.
You would be a funny man if what you say wasn't so wrong. You keep insisting the soul is immortal and yet there are 94 verses in the OT using the word nephesh which say that say the opposite:

Here is a small example:

"Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul (nephesh, psuche) shall live because of thee"Gen. 12:13

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead (nephesh, psuche) among his people" (Lev. 21:1).

"Neither shall he go in to any dead body (nephesh, psuche), nor defile himself for his father, or for his mother" (Lev. 21:11)

"Whoso toucheth any thing that is unclean by the dead (nephesh, psuche), or a man whose seed goeth from him" (Lev. 22:4).

"Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead (nephesh, psuche" (Num. 5:2)

"All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body (nephesh, psuche)" (Num. 6:6)

"And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead (nephesh, psuche), and shall hallow his head that same day" (Num. 6:11)

"And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body (nephesh, psuche) of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day: And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body (nephesh, psuche) of a man" (Num. 9:6, 7).

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body (nephesh, psuche), or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD" (Num. 9:10)

"He that toucheth the dead body (nephesh, psuche) of any man shall be unclean seven days" (Num. 19:11).

"Whosoever toucheth the dead body (nephesh, psuche) of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul (nephesh, psuche) shall be cut off from Israel" (Num. 19:13).

"And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body (nephesh), or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days" (Num. 19:16)

"Whosoever hath killed any person (nephesh), and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day" (Num. 31:19).

"The slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person (nephesh, psuche) at unawares" (Num. 35:11).

"Every one that killeth any person (nephesh, psuche) unawares may flee thither" (Num. 35:15)

"Whoso killeth any person (nephesh, psuche), the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person (nephesh, psuche) to cause him to die" (Num. 35:30).

"And thine eye shall not pity; but *life shall go for *life (*both are nephesh, psuche), eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Deut. 19:21).

"Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person (nephesh, psuche). And all the people shall say, Amen" (Deut. 27:25).

"Deliver our lives (nephesh, psuche) from death. And the men answered her, Our life (nephesh, psuche) for yours, if ye utter not this our business" (Josh. 2:13, 14)

"And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls (nephesh) that were therein; he let none remain" (Josh. 10:28)

"Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body (nephesh, psuche) touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean" (Hag. 2:13).

BTW, There are 21 more passages that show a soul can die, is a dead body, will be destroyed, is a person.

Now if all of these do not convince you the word soul means, a person, I, me, life, living creature than there's nothing anyone can say to show you the truth.

And as to Ezek. 18:4 the words live and die are used in the sense of 3:18, "the wicked shall not live but die in his iniquity."

Which employs the Fig. Polyptoton for emphasis: dying you shall surely die.

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Old 05-01-2012, 10:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
You would be a funny man if what you say wasn't so wrong. You keep insisting the soul is immortal and yet there are 94 verses in the OT using the word nephesh which say that say the opposite:

Here is a small example:

"Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul (nephesh, psuche) shall live because of thee"Gen. 12:13

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead (nephesh, psuche) among his people" (Lev. 21:1).

"Neither shall he go in to any dead body (nephesh, psuche), nor defile himself for his father, or for his mother" (Lev. 21:11)

"Whoso toucheth any thing that is unclean by the dead (nephesh, psuche), or a man whose seed goeth from him" (Lev. 22:4).

"Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead (nephesh, psuche" (Num. 5:2)

"All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body (nephesh, psuche)" (Num. 6:6)

"And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead (nephesh, psuche), and shall hallow his head that same day" (Num. 6:11)

"And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body (nephesh, psuche) of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day: And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body (nephesh, psuche) of a man" (Num. 9:6, 7).

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body (nephesh, psuche), or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD" (Num. 9:10)

"He that toucheth the dead body (nephesh, psuche) of any man shall be unclean seven days" (Num. 19:11).

"Whosoever toucheth the dead body (nephesh, psuche) of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul (nephesh, psuche) shall be cut off from Israel" (Num. 19:13).

"And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body (nephesh), or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days" (Num. 19:16)

"Whosoever hath killed any person (nephesh), and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day" (Num. 31:19).

"The slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person (nephesh, psuche) at unawares" (Num. 35:11).

"Every one that killeth any person (nephesh, psuche) unawares may flee thither" (Num. 35:15)

"Whoso killeth any person (nephesh, psuche), the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person (nephesh, psuche) to cause him to die" (Num. 35:30).

"And thine eye shall not pity; but *life shall go for *life (*both are nephesh, psuche), eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Deut. 19:21).

"Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person (nephesh, psuche). And all the people shall say, Amen" (Deut. 27:25).

"Deliver our lives (nephesh, psuche) from death. And the men answered her, Our life (nephesh, psuche) for yours, if ye utter not this our business" (Josh. 2:13, 14)

"And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls (nephesh) that were therein; he let none remain" (Josh. 10:28)

"Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body (nephesh, psuche) touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean" (Hag. 2:13).

BTW, There are 21 more passages that show a soul can die, is a dead body, will be destroyed, is a person.

Now if all of these do not convince you the word soul means, a person, I, me, life, living creature than there's nothing anyone can say to show you the truth.

And as to Ezek. 18:4 the words live and die are used in the sense of 3:18, "the wicked shall not live but die in his iniquity."

Which employs the Fig. Polyptoton for emphasis: dying you shall surely die.

Again, the word soul is used in different ways in the Bible. It is used for the complete person as I have said. It is also used for the immaterial part of man which does not cease to exist when the body dies, but continues on as I have also said and have shown with scripture.

Eziek 18:4 has already been explained.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:13 AM
 
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An Immortal Soul cannot be consumed. Otherwise, the soul is not immortal. Therefore, to say that the wicked have an immortal soul contradicts the scriptures which show that God will consume the wicked. This is why the idea that the everyone has an immortal soul is NOT Truth. Truth dosesn't contradict and Truth is irrefutable.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
An Immortal Soul cannot be consumed. Otherwise, the soul is not immortal. Therefore, to say that the wicked have an immortal soul contradicts the scriptures which show that God will consume the wicked. This is why the idea that the everyone has an immortal soul is NOT Truth. Truth dosesn't contradict and Truth is irrefutable.


2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [King James Version]

2 Thess 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; [NASB]

2 Thess 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. [NIV]

2 Thess 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy with the breath of his mouth, rendering him powerless by the manifestation of his coming. [International Standard Version]



Trettep, the word which has been translated 'consume' in some translations is from the Greek word anaireo which means to take up, to take away (violently), to put to death, to slay, to kill.

It does not mean to cause to cease to exist anymore than the word apollumi does. Different translations have translated the word anaireo with different English words as can be seen above.


Matthew 10:28 says that physical death does not kill the soul.

Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).


I want you to think, to really think what Matt 10:28 is saying.

First, look at the first half of the verse. Do not fear those who kill the body - the implication here would be death by murder, or martyrdom, or in war; but are unable to kill the soul - the contrast is between the body which can be killed, and the soul which can not be killed by those who kill the body. This means that the soul is not only distinct from the body, but that the soul also survives the death of the body.

Now in terms of physical death, people die every day. And in all manner of ways. Some people get murdered, some die in accidents, others die from some disease, some commit suicide, some die of old age. Regardless of the manner of death, people die every day. But the first half of Matthew 10:28 shows that physical death does not mean the death of the soul.


Now look at the second half of Matthew 10:28.... but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell (Gehenna). God destroys - 'apollumi' (and it's already been made clear that apollumi does not mean to cease to exist) both soul and body in Gehenna - the lake of fire. (And it has already been made clear that Gehenna is a reference to the lake of fire. Refer to post #54.)

But when does this destruction in Gehenna take place? Not until the end of the Millennium. This is far in the future. At least a thousand and seven years in the future if the rapture of the church were to occur today.

Therefore, since the soul survives the death of the body (first half of Matt 10:28), and the destruction of both soul and body (not cessation of existence, but a reference to ruination and uselessness in conscious torment) in Gehenna does not take place until the end of the Millennium (last half of Matt 10:28), and since people have been dying every day throughout human history, then what happens to the soul of those who have died physically? Where does it go?

The reference to the soul and body going to Gehenna is future. But people have been dying every day throughout human history. The soul survives the death of the body. The soul has to go somewhere in the meantime. There has to be a place of residence for the soul once the body is gone. The soul does not reside in the corpse lying in the grave. If the soul were in the body, then the body would not be dead. It is the soul which animates the body. What about those people who have been cremated? There is no body at all in that case. So where does the soul go? Well, since Matthew 10:28 is referring to the unbeliever, the reference is not to heaven. That the soul of the believer goes to heaven can be seen in Rev 6:9-11. The soul of the unbeliever in between the time of his physical death and the time that his body is resurrected and he is cast both body and soul into the lake of fire - Gehenna, goes to the 'torments' side of Hades as Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31. Whether or not Luke 16:19-31 is a parable is irrevelent (see post #76).


And to keep the thread from going off topic I want to emphasize again that this thread is not about eternal condemnation versus Universalism, but rather about the immortality of the soul. References to Hades and to the lake of fire are only for the purpose of showing the soul's immortality.

One of the core beliefs of Christianity is that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. The reason why is because that is what the Bible teaches. Those of you who claim that the soul sleeps or dies with the body are doing so in contradiction of what the word of God states.
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