U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-26-2012, 03:49 PM
 
9,503 posts, read 5,187,313 times
Reputation: 1039

Advertisements

"how do you think babies are saved, twin?"

I know many of you would just love it if I were to appeal to the accusational tone "see told you so" about the heartless, cruel barbaric nature it would be for God by sending anybody to hell. But I'm not going to...
Sorry, but if that's your intention to infer that about God, then I would request that you refrain from responding for I consider that as an attack \ bashing on the character of God ... which I will ask the mods to appropriately deal with.

Also... I ask that this not a debate about baptism not saving. Most of you know by now the verses that those of us who belief that it does which ones show that when babies are saved through baptism.
================================================== ======

How...? By the preponderance of scriptures in totality. Going beyond the answer that one way is through baptism, but what about when one isn't or doesn't have the opportunity .... right? I'll start with only what I do know.

According only to the law... God would.
And Satan would accuse God of not being fair to the law
if he wouldn't send babies to hell. For Satan would use any situtation \ person to his advantage in keeping the "little children" in coming to Jesus.

Yet, Jesus commanded to his disciples
Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. ”
What if .... When Jesus was directing the above to the disciples, he also was looking beyond them like in Mark 8:33 where this exchange takes place:
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.” Mark 8:33


Peter is certianly not Satan... yet Satan was using this adult and situation against God. Could it be that Jesus by saying " do not hinder them" that he also was commanding Satan not to use such a situation for his advantage against babies .....


What if God does indeed make an exception to the law for babies... is there a precedence for exceptions ?



A: Yes
  • "No one can see the face of God and live" ... yet we know that some did and lived.
  • "wages of sin is death" ... yet Enoch and Elijah (though sinners) never died.
We know that these exceptions happened for no other reason than God's grace not because of being fair.

My conclusion then is this:
The preponderance of scriptures in totality would allow for one to say that God would show grace to certian select circumstances when such specific scenerios are not explicity expressed.

In other words, babies who are not baptised, could be saved because of Jesus' command to not hinder them which is based on grace.

However.."age accountability" is not scriptural. I don't want to even go there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-26-2012, 03:59 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,995,489 times
Reputation: 649
I appreciate your post twin, but why would God make an exception for babies? If it is right and just that someone should go to eternal hell, then why should there be any exception?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2012, 04:02 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,995,489 times
Reputation: 649
FYI, that is not what I believe, but that is the argument that has been presented to me by other people.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2012, 04:24 PM
 
9,503 posts, read 5,187,313 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I appreciate your post twin, but why would God make an exception for babies? If it is right and just that someone should go to eternal hell, then why should there be any exception?
Due to my sinful nature ... I know that if I didn't remind myself as to just who I am, I would be very tempted to seek an answer that would appease to my sensibilities.

As heartless as conservatives are protrayed .. I take soul troubling burdens to the throne of a graceful loving God and leave it there so as not to give my sinful nature nor Satan any satisfaction.

I would rather frustrate and ruin Satan's attempts than to satisfy my desire to know.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-26-2012, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Florida -
5,012 posts, read 3,612,657 times
Reputation: 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
"how do you think babies are saved, twin?"

I know many of you would just love it if I were to appeal to the accusational tone "see told you so" about the heartless, cruel barbaric nature it would be for God by sending anybody to hell. But I'm not going to...
Sorry, but if that's your intention to infer that about God, then I would request that you refrain from responding for I consider that as an attack \ bashing on the character of God ... which I will ask the mods to appropriately deal with.

Also... I ask that this not a debate about baptism not saving. Most of you know by now the verses that those of us who belief that it does which ones show that when babies are saved through baptism.
================================================== ======

How...? By the preponderance of scriptures in totality. Going beyond the answer that one way is through baptism, but what about when one isn't or doesn't have the opportunity .... right? I'll start with only what I do know.

According only to the law... God would.
And Satan would accuse God of not being fair to the law
if he wouldn't send babies to hell. For Satan would use any situtation \ person to his advantage in keeping the "little children" in coming to Jesus.

Yet, Jesus commanded to his disciples
Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. ”
What if .... When Jesus was directing the above to the disciples, he also was looking beyond them like in Mark 8:33 where this exchange takes place:
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.” Mark 8:33


Peter is certianly not Satan... yet Satan was using this adult and situation against God. Could it be that Jesus by saying " do not hinder them" that he also was commanding Satan not to use such a situation for his advantage against babies .....


What if God does indeed make an exception to the law for babies... is there a precedence for exceptions ?




A: Yes
  • "No one can see the face of God and live" ... yet we know that some did and lived.
  • "wages of sin is death" ... yet Enoch and Elijah (though sinners) never died.
We know that these exceptions happened for no other reason than God's grace not because of being fair.

My conclusion then is this:
The preponderance of scriptures in totality would allow for one to say that God would show grace to certian select circumstances when such specific scenerios are not explicity expressed.

In other words, babies who are not baptised, could be saved because of Jesus' command to not hinder them which is based on grace.

However.."age accountability" is not scriptural. I don't want to even go there.
Good approach to a difficult question that we really don't completely understand. But, God does and He is always righteous, holy and just ... and whatever He does will be right. (It's kind of like the "infants and natives" question often used to challenge God's righteousness.

As long as we are speculating, here's another twist on the same question: 'What about the millions of aborted babies ... whom God 'knew in their mother's womb?'

Since they were not 'born into this fallen world', I think we can only assume that they will return to God ... but, can we know and understand how that works? --- It doesn't matter or God would have revealed it to us. What does matter is that we 'BELIEVE' God ... (we can no more understand God's mind than an infant can understand its parent's tax return)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2012, 12:14 AM
 
7,633 posts, read 2,782,393 times
Reputation: 641
There is only one sensible answer:

"What applies to one is applicable to all."


1 Timothy 2:4

Who desires all [mankind] to be saved; and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

"An Active, ongoing result of a previous action."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2012, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Lubbock, Tx
5,183 posts, read 2,069,517 times
Reputation: 6599
Babies can and are saved by the sacrament of Baptism.
Ac 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Ac 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call/

Note that he says your children also, and does not indicate that they must be a certain age, so the invitation is for all children. The Great Commission, Matt 28 says make disciples of all nations. and does not excude any age group.

In the book of Acts, a jailer and all his family are baptized. We can assume at least one small child was included
Ac 16:33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.


So the reality is that God makes it easy to be saved. ITs mankinds fault if anyone is lost, because they refuse to believe God's word or God's promises.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2012, 08:21 AM
 
Location: USA
5,761 posts, read 2,207,266 times
Reputation: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
So the reality is that God makes it easy to be saved. ITs mankinds fault if anyone is lost, because they refuse to believe God's word or God's promises.

So, iow, if there are babies existing forever in torment, it's because they had the bad luck of being born to non-Christian parents?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2012, 10:20 AM
 
Location: US
10,692 posts, read 4,158,364 times
Reputation: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Good approach to a difficult question that we really don't completely understand. But, God does and He is always righteous, holy and just ... and whatever He does will be right. (It's kind of like the "infants and natives" question often used to challenge God's righteousness.

As long as we are speculating, here's another twist on the same question: 'What about the millions of aborted babies ... whom God 'knew in their mother's womb?'

Since they were not 'born into this fallen world', I think we can only assume that they will return to God ... but, can we know and understand how that works? --- It doesn't matter or God would have revealed it to us. What does matter is that we 'BELIEVE' God ... (we can no more understand God's mind than an infant can understand its parent's tax return)
Heck!...I can't even understand MY tax return...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-27-2012, 11:21 AM
 
9,503 posts, read 5,187,313 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
Babies can and are saved by the sacrament of Baptism.
Ac 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Ac 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call/

Note that he says your children also, and does not indicate that they must be a certain age, so the invitation is for all children. The Great Commission, Matt 28 says make disciples of all nations. and does not excude any age group.

In the book of Acts, a jailer and all his family are baptized. We can assume at least one small child was included
Ac 16:33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.


So the reality is that God makes it easy to be saved. ITs mankinds fault if anyone is lost, because they refuse to believe God's word or God's promises.
I agree. That is why I said at the beginning:
Also... I ask that this not a debate about baptism not saving. Most of you know by now the verses that those of us who belief that it does which ones show that babies are saved through baptism.

If we are to closely examine Jesus' words, he does not specifically address the babies that are not brought to him in this exchange: (Matthew, Mark and Luke word it slightly different)
Matthew 19:13-15
Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Mark 10:13-15
People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them.
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.

Luke 18:15-17
People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them.
But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
The other time we have direct contact with a "little child" and Jesus is in Matthew 18:1-9.

Here in Matthew 18:1-9 notice how Jesus phrases this: "one of these little ones who believe in me to sin"
  • "one of these little ones"
    • from Matthew 19:13-15, Mark 10:13-15, Luke 18:15-17 "little ones" we know that included babies ( "infants" in the KJV)
  • "one of these little ones who believe in me
    • Ever read people who claim babies can't believe because they can't make a decision
    • Jesus does not however specifically address those babies that do not believe
  • "one of these little ones who believe in me to sin"
    • What is the ultimate sin that a person can do... IMO it's unbelief
Here's what I find interesting ( and I admit this might be an incorrect conclusions)..... what Jesus doesn't say.
He doesn't mention the fate of the babies, he singles out "the world" and "the man who did it" to the babies.
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Woe to the world becauseof the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $89,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top