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Well, yes, I understand that faith is given by G-d as a gift, and I receive that gift and have acted upon that gift. My salvation is received and sure.
Other than that, I may have to unexpectedly work today, but other than that, I got a new tool box put my tools in it; my husband has a week off so I will see him more for a little while; my children and grandchildren are well and good; and I bought a brand new box of Velcro. For today, all's right with my little world.
.................says the one who also says that one cannot lose their salvation either..........
......need I say more . No .
Since man cannot earn eternal life, neither can he do anything to lose it. God did all the work of salvation and He keeps the believer saved.
Verna, I have said all that I intend to say to you. I know from past experience that you will not listen. You choose to work for your salvation and depend on your own righteousness instead of simply trusting in Christ. If you continue to do so you will find out the hard way that you were wrong. Think it over.
Quite to the contrary. I have said that faith is the only requirement to take possession of eternal life. Faith being non-meritorius means that man can take no credit for believing in Christ. Man can only trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross for eternal salvation.
If man can take no credit, then it's not his will and it's not his choice. That means salvation is arbitrary. It simply does not matter what one believes or does. We all have the same odds when that great roll of the dice in the sky takes place.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Again, I have already said that faith is a requirement, the ONLY requirement for eternal life.
It doesn't matter if there is only one requirement or many. It's still a merited salvation unless you insist that we play no role, in which case it is utterly arbitrary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3] For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited (imputed) to him as righteousness." 4] Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited (imputed) as righteousness,
God does not owe man anything and therefore man cannot earn salvation by working for it. Futhermore, there is no amount of work that a man could do to convert his relative human righteousness into the perfect absolute righteousness which God requires of those who would spend eternity in the presence of God. Therefore, when a person simply trusts in Christ, God imputes His very own righteousness to the one who has believed.
You are contradicting yourself. If a person must trust in Christ to be saved, then there is something man can do to earn salvation: trust in Christ. If that trust is not required, or if that trust is something that God imputes through no influence from us, then it's utterly arbitrary.
I've already shown you the following verses.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Your salvation is not of yourself. You cannot earn it. It is a gift from God which is appropriated through faith alone in Christ alone.
You keep contradicting yourself. If it is appropriated through faith, then it is earned. If God gives us that faith, then it's utterly arbitrary. This is quite simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Faith is not arbitrary. Faith is necessary in order to have eternal life. But God does not force faith on anyone. Faith is a requirement for eternal salvation, but whether you place your faith in Christ in response to the gospel is your choice.
You are contradicting yourself. Above you said, "Faith being non-meritorius means that man can take no credit for believing in Christ," but here you say faith is "your choice." If it's my choice, then it's my initiative, I take credit for making the choice, and it is on me to earn salvation or to not earn it. If I can't take credit, then it's not my choice. Even if it is only made possible by someone else, as long as any aspect of it rests on my will, I can take credit. It's quite simple: if my will has anything at all to do with any requirement, then I earn salvation. That's not an interpretation, it's a logical inevitability. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying 2+2=5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
To have faith in Christ for eternal life means that having recognized that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died for your sins, you put the full weight of your trust - confidence - faith on Christ.
God cannot arbitrarily save anyone who does not respond to the gospel by placing their faith in Christ. God requires a volitional decision from man to respond to the gospel and trust in Christ because man's volition is the most basic issue in the spiritual warfare of the angelic conflict. The Scriptures also say that faith is not works and that man can take no credit for trusting in Christ.
If salvation is dependent upon man's volition and his placing his faith in Christ, then it is earned. Man's will is the proximate cause, and his salvation rests upon his decision to execute that work or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe in Christ) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
John 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38] "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
You can choose to come to Christ by believing in/on Him, or you can choose to not come to Him for life.
If it's my choice, then my choice is what catalyzes salvation, and salvation is earned or merited by that choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You have already been shown some verses which show that you must believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life, and that faith is distinquished from works and is therefore not meritorious.
"Works" is not unilaterally identifiable with all the meritorious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You do not earn salvation by placing your faith in Christ, you simply acknowledge what Christ did on your behalf and accept the invitation to come to Christ for eternal life.
If that acknowledgement is required, then satisfying the acknowledgment is merit the recompense. The word means "to become entitled to," and if I am entitled to salvation upon acknowledging what Christ did and accepting his invitation, then I merit salvation through my decision. You cannot simply insist that that's not the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
To believe in/on Christ simply means to trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Trust is non-meritorus which means that you cannot take any credit for your salvation. The credit goes to Jesus who did all the work for your salvation.
Unless Christ made the decision to believe for me, then he did not do everything for my salvation. If it is my choice, then I can take credit for my choice. If salvation is dependent on that choice, and you have said it is, then I can absolutely take credit for my salvation. You can't have it both ways. Either it's my choice and thus I can take credit, or it's not my choice, and thus it's arbitrary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
If you do not simply trust in Christ alone for eternal life then you remain under condemnation.
Then what Christ did doesn't matter to my salvation, since I did not do my part. That means salvation is earned. I must merit it through the correct choice. If I don't make the right choice, then I am not entitled to salvation. In other words, I have not merited it. This is quite black and white, but I find it quite humorous to see fundamentalists refuse to wrap their brains around the fact that they cannot say salvation is based on our decision but also not based on our decision.
I will be the first to say: I believe Jesus Christ died for all my sins!
It's time to take a stand. Who else of you believe He died for your sins?
ive listened to the story and ive yet to be convinced how the sacrafice jesus made was any greater than some young kid from alabama who heads over to iraq with a high chance of dieing , presumabley the GI,s sacrafice required more courage as his dad wasnt the most powerfull dude in the cosmos , all in all i think JC,s selfless act is a little overrated
Since man cannot earn eternal life, neither can he do anything to lose it. God did all the work of salvation and He keeps the believer saved.
You've been asserting that man must do a specific thing in order to earn salvation, but you insist that requirement is not a "work," and that our meriting salvation does not constitute "meriting salvation." This means our salvation is only precluded from being lost through works. Since there are many actions that are not works (faith, for instance), there are many ways to lose salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Verna, I have said all that I intend to say to you. I know from past experience that you will not listen. You choose to work for your salvation and depend on your own righteousness instead of simply trusting in Christ. If you continue to do so you will find out the hard way that you were wrong. Think it over.
I've thought it over for years, and it's still a flagrant contradiction. Whether I choose to believe in order to merit salvation or choose to work to merit it, it's my choice that effects salvation, and it's therefore based on my actions, not on Christ's. You've already stated that Christ's works are irrelevant to my salvation if I do do my part and believe. That means to proximate cause is my decision and nothing else.
If man can take no credit, then it's not his will and it's not his choice. That means salvation is arbitrary. It simply does not matter what one believes or does. We all have the same odds when that great roll of the dice in the sky takes place.
It doesn't matter if there is only one requirement or many. It's still a merited salvation unless you insist that we play no role, in which case it is utterly arbitrary.
You are contradicting yourself. If a person must trust in Christ to be saved, then there is something man can do to earn salvation: trust in Christ. If that trust is not required, or if that trust is something that God imputes through no influence from us, then it's utterly arbitrary.
I've already shown you the following verses.
You keep contradicting yourself. If it is appropriated through faith, then it is earned. If God gives us that faith, then it's utterly arbitrary. This is quite simple.
You are contradicting yourself. Above you said, "Faith being non-meritorius means that man can take no credit for believing in Christ," but here you say faith is "your choice." If it's my choice, then it's my initiative, I take credit for making the choice, and it is on me to earn salvation or to not earn it. If I can't take credit, then it's not my choice. Even if it is only made possible by someone else, as long as any aspect of it rests on my will, I can take credit. It's quite simple: if my will has anything at all to do with any requirement, then I earn salvation. That's not an interpretation, it's a logical inevitability. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying 2+2=5.
If salvation is dependent upon man's volition and his placing his faith in Christ, then it is earned. Man's will is the proximate cause, and his salvation rests upon his decision to execute that work or not.
If it's my choice, then my choice is what catalyzes salvation, and salvation is earned or merited by that choice.
"Works" is not unilaterally identifiable with all the meritorious.
If that acknowledgement is required, then satisfying the acknowledgment is merit the recompense. The word means "to become entitled to," and if I am entitled to salvation upon acknowledging what Christ did and accepting his invitation, then I merit salvation through my decision. You cannot simply insist that that's not the case.
Unless Christ made the decision to believe for me, then he did not do everything for my salvation. If it is my choice, then I can take credit for my choice. If salvation is dependent on that choice, and you have said it is, then I can absolutely take credit for my salvation. You can't have it both ways. Either it's my choice and thus I can take credit, or it's not my choice, and thus it's arbitrary.
Then what Christ did doesn't matter to my salvation, since I did not do my part. That means salvation is earned. I must merit it through the correct choice. If I don't make the right choice, then I am not entitled to salvation. In other words, I have not merited it. This is quite black and white, but I find it quite humorous to see fundamentalists refuse to wrap their brains around the fact that they cannot say salvation is based on our decision but also not based on our decision.
No chance.
You take great pride in your degrees and what you think you know about the Bible. And yet like so many, you do not even understand what the Scriptures so clearly state concerning the issue of eternal salvation.
You say that I am contradicting myself. Yet it is the word of God which says that you must believe in Christ. It is also the word of God which says that faith is not a work by which man can take credit and boast. That means that it is non-meritorous. Trust is non-meritorious.
I have shown you the scripture which shows that man can choose for or against Christ. Eternal salvation is a free gift which is offered. You are invited to come to Christ for salvation. You are also free to refuse the invitation. The choice is yours.
Jesus did absolutely everything necessary to make salvation possible for man. This includes the doctrines pertaining to redemption, unlimited atonement, expiation, propitiation, regeneration, imputation, justification, and positional truth.
Because of Christ's redemptive work on the cross which satisfied or propitiated the Father, whenever anyone believes in/on Christ for salvation, he is regenerated and receives the imputation of God own righteousness and eternal life.
You want to argue that if you have to believe in Christ for salvation that you therefore are doing something meritorious. The Bible flat out refutes that, and I have already twice shown you the Scriptures which prove that.
And no, contrary to what you said in post #47 I did not state or imply that Christ's works are irrelevant to your salvation if you do do your part and believe.' What I did say was that the work of Christ on the cross will not benefit you if you do not believe in Him for salvation.
The work of salvation was completed at the cross. You simply respond to what Christ did on the cross by trusting in that finished work. The credit goes to Christ who died as a substitute for you. You get no credit for trusting in that finished work.
I have also given you an opportunity to learn something about the doctrine of soteriology from that study I provided and you are quite clear that you have no interest in learning anything about it. This shows negative volition on your part.
If you refuse to believe what the Bible says about the matter, that is your choice. Having made the issue clear, I have no interest in arguing about it. Believe what you will.
You take great pride in your degrees and what you think you know about the Bible.
I've never mentioned my degrees unless my education has been challenged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And yet like so many, you do not even understand what the Scriptures so clearly state concerning the issue of eternal salvation.
No, I just acknowledge what they state free from any presuppositional dogmatism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You say that I am contradicting myself. Yet it is the word of God which says that you must believe in Christ. It is also the word of God which says that faith is not a work by which man can take credit and boast.
Actually James quite unequivocally states that there is no faith without works, and that man is certainly justified by works. The fundamentalist response has been to force harmonization upon the texts by insisting James is saying that works are manifested by the person who has been saved, but that's just a ludicrous reading of a very simple and straightforward challenge to Paul's rhetoric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
That means that it is non-meritorous. Trust is non-meritorious.
Not at all. Just because your dogmatism demands the reconciliation of two irreconcilable positions does not mean you can just assert whatever logical nonsense you want in order to effect the reconciliation. A similar reconciliation is the notion of the hypostatic union: Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. How is such a logical impossibility possible? It just is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
I have shown you the scripture which shows that man can choose for or against Christ. Eternal salvation is a free gift which is offered. You are invited to come to Christ for salvation. You are also free to refuse the invitation. The choice is yours.
If the choice is mine, then the recompense is contingent upon my will, and thus I merit one recompense or the other. You cannot say that the choice is mine, but that the outcome is dependent upon me. That's just ludicrous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus did absolutely everything necessary to make salvation possible for man. This includes the doctrines pertaining to redemption, unlimited atonement, expiation, propitiation, regeneration, imputation, justification, and positional truth.
None of that matters if salvation depends finally and definitively on the choice of each human being. My decisions and actions determine whether I get salvation according to your worldview. That means the proximate cause is me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Because of Christ's redemptive work on the cross which satisfied or propitiated the Father, whenever anyone believes in/on Christ for salvation, he is regenerated and receives the imputation of God own righteousness and eternal life.
You want to argue that if you have to believe in Christ for salvation that you therefore are doing something meritorious. The Bible flat out refutes that, and I have already twice shown you the Scriptures which prove that.
No, you've just asserted that two distinct rhetorical threads must be reconciled with your selective view of biblical univocality and literality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And no, contrary to what you said in post #47 I did not state or imply that Christ's works are irrelevant to your salvation if you do do your part and believe.' What I did say was that the work of Christ on the cross will not benefit you if you do not believe in Him for salvation.
Your current post is post #47. What I said was the following:
Quote:
what Christ did doesn't matter to my salvation, since I did not do my part.
This is identical to what you're saying:
Quote:
the work of Christ on the cross will not benefit you if you do not believe in Him for salvation.
Since Christ's works are irrelevant if I decide not to effect salvation, the final impetus for salvation rests squarely with my own agency. I decide whether or not it is effected, and thus I can take credit for its proximate cause. I did not bring about the possibility of salvation, but I certainly determine whether or not it has effect on me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The work of salvation was completed at the cross. You simply respond to what Christ did on the cross by trusting in that finished work. The credit goes to Christ who died as a substitute for you. You get no credit for trusting in that finished work.
If I get no credit, then why do you keep insisting that it's my choice? If I make the choice, then I get credit for making the choice. If I choose the negative, I get the punishment for choosing the negative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
I have also given you an opportunity to learn something about the doctrine of soteriology from that study I provided and you are quite clear that you have no interest in learning anything about it. This shows negative volition on your part.
No, what it shows is that I've already been exposed to every soteriological angle you guys can conjure up, and nothing you can say can make your logical fallacy stop being a logical fallacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
If you refuse to believe what the Bible says about the matter, that is your choice. Having made the issue clear, I have no interest in arguing about it. Believe what you will.
I don't refuse to believe what the Bible says, I just know that the Bible says a lot of contradictory stuff, and so I put no stock in the different scenarios and explanations people make up to try to make it all univocal. That puts the cart before the horse and deifies ones own view of the Bible.
ive listened to the story and ive yet to be convinced how the sacrafice jesus made was any greater than some young kid from alabama who heads over to iraq with a high chance of dieing , presumabley the GI,s sacrafice required more courage as his dad wasnt the most powerfull dude in the cosmos , all in all i think JC,s selfless act is a little overrated
That's O.K. You won't always think that.
The difference between the two is
The kid who sacrificed everything to go to Iraq to keep us free is sort of like Christ who sacrificed everything to free all mankind from sin and death.
First, God sacrificed His pure, perfect Son. Christ had to have faith that, in spite of the horrible afflictions and death, God was going to raise Him from the dead.
Secondly, God placed upon His Son every sin ever committed or will be committed.
Thirdly, when Christ died, God put the old humanity to death. God reckoned all mankind to be in Christ when He died. Therefore all died.
Fourthly, Christ rose from the dead thus creating a new humanity which all mankind will experience eventually.
I've never mentioned my degrees unless my education has been challenged.
No, I just acknowledge what they state free from any presuppositional dogmatism.
Actually James quite unequivocally states that there is no faith without works, and that man is certainly justified by works. The fundamentalist response has been to force harmonization upon the texts by insisting James is saying that works are manifested by the person who has been saved, but that's just a ludicrous reading of a very simple and straightforward challenge to Paul's rhetoric.
Not at all. Just because your dogmatism demands the reconciliation of two irreconcilable positions does not mean you can just assert whatever logical nonsense you want in order to effect the reconciliation. A similar reconciliation is the notion of the hypostatic union: Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. How is such a logical impossibility possible? It just is.
If the choice is mine, then the recompense is contingent upon my will, and thus I merit one recompense or the other. You cannot say that the choice is mine, but that the outcome is dependent upon me. That's just ludicrous.
None of that matters if salvation depends finally and definitively on the choice of each human being. My decisions and actions determine whether I get salvation according to your worldview. That means the proximate cause is me.
No, you've just asserted that two distinct rhetorical threads must be reconciled with your selective view of biblical univocality and literality.
Your current post is post #47. What I said was the following:
This is identical to what you're saying:
It was post #45. I either looked at it wrong or a couple of posts got deleted which would have changed the posting number. What you said was, 'You've already stated that Christ's works are irrelevant to my salvation if I do do my part and believe.' That's the opposite of what I said. What Christ did on the cross does not benefit you if you do not believe in Him for salvation.
Quote:
Since Christ's works are irrelevant if I decide not to effect salvation, the final impetus for salvation rests squarely with my own agency. I decide whether or not it is effected, and thus I can take credit for its proximate cause. I did not bring about the possibility of salvation, but I certainly determine whether or not it has effect on me.
If I get no credit, then why do you keep insisting that it's my choice? If I make the choice, then I get credit for making the choice. If I choose the negative, I get the punishment for choosing the negative.
No, what it shows is that I've already been exposed to every soteriological angle you guys can conjure up, and nothing you can say can make your logical fallacy stop being a logical fallacy.
I don't refuse to believe what the Bible says, I just know that the Bible says a lot of contradictory stuff, and so I put no stock in the different scenarios and explanations people make up to try to make it all univocal. That puts the cart before the horse and deifies ones own view of the Bible.
Take a good hard look at Ephesians 2:8-9 and see if you can comprehend what it says. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works so that no man can boast, which means that he can take no credit for believing in Christ. Then compare it with the other Scriptures which tell you that you must believe. And then compare it with the passage I showed which shows that man can choose not to come to Christ for salvation.
The Bible does not contradict itself. If you had any understanding you would realize that. But that's off topic. Now this is it. I have already told you that in view of your negative volition I have no intention to go back and forth arguing about it. As I said, believe what you want. I have better things to do.
It was post #45. I either looked at it wrong or a couple of posts got deleted which would have changed the posting number. What you said was, 'You've already stated that Christ's works are irrelevant to my salvation if I do do my part and believe.' That's the opposite of what I said.
Obviously that was a typo, and the "not" between the first and second "do" was omitted. Didn't that occur to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
What Christ did on the cross does not benefit you if you do not believe in Him for salvation.
Take a good hard look at Ephesians 2:8-9 and see if you can comprehend what it says.
I know very well what it says, but it doesn't solve your problem at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works so that no man can boast, which means that he can take no credit for believing in Christ. Then compare it with the other Scriptures which tell you that you must believe. And then compare it with the passage I showed which shows that man can choose not to come to Christ for salvation.
The Bible does not contradict itself.
Oh, it unquestionably contradicts itself hundreds and hundreds of times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
If you had any understanding you would realize that. But that's off topic. Now this is it. I have already told you that in view of your negative volition I have no intention to go back and forth arguing about it. As I said, believe what you want. I have better things to do.
Then do them and stop trying to get in the last word.
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