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Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Originally Posted by sun queen
Ummmm, when read the question I could instantly relate, I am a seeker and a believer. However, I am not wondering if I am saved that is settled forever. The things I wonder about are the religious systems of men...
My question for you is are you a believer? The Bible is not just words on a page. Anyone can read the Bible, but not without the Spirit to believe, u will only see the words and not the truth they contain. Why would Noah's Arc be a stumbling block to your faith? Noah has very little to do with your salvation. Jesus Christ is the WAY... And if u believe in HIM there is hope no matter what your struggles maybe. I encourage u to keep seeking and my hope for u is that HE is what u r seeking after and that u find the TRUTH.
I have most of my life, but sometimes I wonder if I'm really 'sure' enough to deserve the title 'believer.' What if is say 60-70%, does that leave too much room to be sure? Would Jesus 'spit out' 'such a person for being 'luke-warm', even if they intellectually strive to believe?
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnysee
I find it beyond hard to believe that they uplifted THIS much. Mountain tops...some of the higher mountains? help me here!
Well we're told the process took millions of years. Since tectonic plates only move a few inches every year. I suppose that's why it requires so long for all the continents to move around, and for tectonic forces to shape mountains and the elements to wear them down again.
Being told 'you must take the Bible all or nothing', something like the Ark story can loom large as a threat to your entire faith. It's frustrating. Things like Noah's Ark don't compromise my faith in God Himself, but it does compromise my faith in the Biblical God. Do you find yourself able to have strong faith in the Biblical God regardless of what the OT says, or do you feel the need to find faith in God ELSEWHERE from the Bible?
One of the fundamental aspects of most 'faith' and 'religion' discussions ... is the issue of what people will accept as their basis for "Truth." Is 'truth' what one has 'always believed'?; what one's personal logic tells them is 'true'?; what their grandmother told them?; ... or simply one's opinion at any given time?
Without a standard for 'truth', it morphs into somewhat of 'relative view of God and the world.' While that seems comfortable to many, it tends to leave one in the position of defining God and truth ... which most people know they are really incapable of doing.
The problem with rejecting the Bible as God's Word of truth, is that it leaves one with no other consistently reliable alternatives. Even concluding that "some" of the Bible is true, while other parts are not .... leaves one with no basis for the parts that they decide are true.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton
One of the fundamental aspects of most 'faith' and 'religion' discussions ... is the issue of what people will accept as their basis for "Truth." Is 'truth' what one has 'always believed'?; what one's personal logic tells them is 'true'?; what their grandmother told them?; ... or simply one's opinion at any given time?
Without a standard for 'truth', it morphs into somewhat of 'relative view of God and the world.' While that seems comfortable to many, it tends to leave one in the position of defining God and truth ... which most people know they are really incapable of doing.
The problem with rejecting the Bible as God's Word of truth, is that it leaves one with no other consistently reliable alternatives. Even concluding that "some" of the Bible is true, while other parts are not .... leaves one with no basis for the parts that they decide are true.
What if one finds it hard or impossible to intellectually believe in the Bible fully, even if one wishes to?
the hurdles to their faith, or the areas of religion they see as deficient?
Not someone who has totally made up their mind like a lot here...but someone I can relate to. Someone who wants to retain their faith, but if it turns out to be totally lacking in foundation, not stubbornly ignore the facts in preference of comfort. I really want to find the truth. I believe I'm still a child of God, as hard as it is to believe at times, but even if I'm not 'saved' (although I think I am, not certain I suppose) it would be good to discuss issues with Christians and non-Christians alike.
The first topic, I think, would be how Noah's Ark is totally blocking me from having any genuine faith in the Biblical God. Your understanding of it, and how it could possibly fit into a certain worldview. I guess it's plausibility and whatnot, perhaps as a historical event that while isn't exactly as described in Genesis still has relevance to the rest of the Biblical narrative.
Start with the authenticity of Jesus as the Messiah and God in the flesh, and read what he says.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
All Scripture has at least two witnesses.
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
If you believe him, than you will believe that Noah was a real person and that all of this really happened. If you don't believe him, than it doesn't matter.
God says he alone knows the end from the beginning.
Isaiah 46:9-10
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
For science apologetics in this area, I recommend drdino.com and checking out Dr. Chuck Missler's commentary on Genesis found for free on you tube. Their really is nothing to apologize about. 70+ percent of the World is covered with water. Variations within kinds. Didn't have to worry about animals in the water or the air.
It just as Evolution theology is taken on faith, but who are we going to believe? The infallible Creator of the universe or fallible man in his faulty theoretical conclusions who keeps proving this time and time again.
Salvation/Justification before the throne of God is a gift freely given (Romans 3,4,5)(Ephesians 2:8-10) to those turning to him through Jesus Christ with their heart. Eternal life or Eternal damnation? It is a SLAM dunk deal! Our Pride is our greatest enemy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 I am not a bible literalist, so to me it's pretty simple: The Noah's Ark story is a cultural retelling of a more ancient story of a massive flood that appeared in numerous ancient civilizations. I know that there's a finite amount of water on the planet, so I know that water didn't cover the entire earth. I also know that there's some evidence that rapid melting took place near the end of the last ice age, and some species disappeared very quickly. Flooding from the glaciers melting and perhaps climate/weather issues could have given rise to these stories. It is not surprising that the story of a righteous man who survives the flood because he alone listened to God would come out of earlier stories of a terrible flood. It may very well be that the story was illustrative to begin with and never meant to be taken literally, but given as a lesson in obedience. There's no way to know the origin of stories that rose in prehistory's shadows around fires in desert caves.
You could find lots of relevance in it. The story of obedience. The metaphor of birth/rebirth out of water. The cycle of the earth and of new beginnings/life renewing itself, a pretty common theme in Christianity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20
I lean to this, today. I would have no problem taking the Flood story/myth metaphorically except Jesus seemed to believe in it as literal history. Which means I would have to begin to question what Jesus said. There lies the dilemma. I wish I was one of those people who could suspend my reason but I'm not.
How do you know Jesus also meant it literally? Jesus knew that the Jews at that time took the Hebrew Scriptures literally, so He may have been just exploiting that interpretation to emphasize His point. Much like the writers of the OT did when they wrote those oral traditions down.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA
You can't understand it with your mind, you must use your heart and be guided by the Holy Spirit. Only through the Holy Spirit can we understand.
Believing that Jesus died for you and loved you is a matter of being guided by the Spirit. But what about intellectual belief in the historicity of an event? I suppose Jesus himself is, too, but one can pit one's hope on something that elicits such emotion, while Biblical history seems a matter of the intellect too.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmforte
How do you know Jesus also meant it literally? Jesus knew that the Jews at that time took the Hebrew Scriptures literally, so He may have been just exploiting that interpretation to emphasize His point. Much like the writers of the OT did when they wrote those oral traditions down.
Possible but unlikely. Also there's the genealogies tracing Jesus from Adam. If Luke, Mark or Matthew wanted people to take these stories metaphorically, would they not have said so?
I also wonder if there were any Gospels...obviously Jesus said many many things. How do we know none of the other gospels, say the Gnostic gospels, are not inspired? I suppose if they conflict with the accepted four.
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