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Old 06-10-2012, 05:22 PM
 
14,752 posts, read 26,596,337 times
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Somewhere in the NT, there is a passage that says something like "woe to those who malign celestial beings, for ought to wish they were never born."

First, this is a little dour. What does this mean? Does this include dead people who are now in heaven? If acquaintances et. al. were crappy people in this life, I, and many people, may speak unfavorably of them. In fact, this has been done throughout history. How am I supposed to know if they are now "celestial?"
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,264 posts, read 83,860,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
Somewhere in the NT, there is a passage that says something like "woe to those who malign celestial beings, for ought to wish they were never born."

First, this is a little dour. What does this mean? Does this include dead people who are now in heaven? If acquaintances et. al. were crappy people in this life, I, and many people, may speak unfavorably of them. In fact, this has been done throughout history. How am I supposed to know if they are now "celestial?"
I can't think of a place where something even close to this appears in the Bible.

I think you are mistaken that this is from the Bible.

Oh, and FYI, people never become celestial beings - these are God's angels and messengers.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:47 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,184 posts, read 28,861,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
I can't think of a place where something even close to this appears in the Bible.

I think you are mistaken that this is from the Bible.

Oh, and FYI, people never become celestial beings - these are God's angels and messengers.
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:03 PM
 
489 posts, read 610,189 times
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This is what you are looking for robertpolyglot......


2 Peter 2 - "False Teachers and Their Destruction"

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them —bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed —an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.


Also....

Jude 1: 8-10

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!". 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct - as irrational animals do - will destroy them.

Last edited by Brother Michael; 06-10-2012 at 08:19 PM..
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:26 AM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,550,281 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiliPepper1 View Post
This is what you are looking for robertpolyglot......


2 Peter 2 - "False Teachers and Their Destruction"

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them —bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed —an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.


Also....

Jude 1: 8-10

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!". 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct - as irrational animals do - will destroy them.
Not sure which translation you're using for these passages but v. 8, in the KJV, reads:

8 ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of *dignities.

*dignities is doxa and has nothing to do with celestial beings. It means glory, dignity, honor, praise or worship.


It's also used here:

2 Peter 2:10 ¶ But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities [doxa]


So Peter isn't saying they speak evil against 'beings' but they speak evil of 'holy things.' Look back at v. 2:

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of
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Old 06-11-2012, 03:11 PM
 
489 posts, read 610,189 times
Reputation: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Not sure which translation you're using for these passages but v. 8, in the KJV, reads:

8 ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of *dignities.

*dignities is doxa and has nothing to do with celestial beings. It means glory, dignity, honor, praise or worship.


It's also used here:

2 Peter 2:10 ¶ But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities [doxa]


So Peter isn't saying they speak evil against 'beings' but they speak evil of 'holy things.' Look back at v. 2:

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of
NIV....
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