U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-12-2012, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Central Virginia
834 posts, read 1,932,492 times
Reputation: 636

Advertisements

I'm sorry to ask such a controversial question but honestly, this board is the only place I can ask such a question and get good answers.


I asked this very question about 12 years ago in our church Bible group. The leader of the group put his hand up to me and said, "We don't talk about the E word." I was embarrassed and shut down. Here I am 12 years later asking the same question hoping I'll get some answers.

I have a few questions actually.

First, people say that Adam and Eve were the first people and we descended from them. However everyone and everything was killed in the floods. Therefore all mankind would have come from Noah and his family, right? So wouldn't we be descendants of Noah? Why do people always say Adam and Eve?

So from Noah and his family came people of all races with traits that allow them to live better in their environments (darker skin closer to the equator, Eskimos with slanted eyes that help them in cold harsh weather, lighter skinned people in colder climates, etc)
How is that NOT evolution? If all people came from Noah's family and those people became the races as we know today (African, Asian, Native American, Hispanic) how is that not evolution? Their physical traits evolved into something to better adapt to their environments right?

I had biology in college and honestly what we learned never negated Creation and God. My science teacher from grammar school who first taught us of evolution is a strong Christian. Jane Goodall who is a world expert in primates and anthropology is a Christian. Why are Christians often made to choose between evolution and creation. To me, evolution is a result of creation.

I guess my other question is, why do we believe that God created the earth but can't believe He created it to grow and change. Man has created Smart Phones. Tivo learns what the user likes and starts to record things that it "thinks" you'll like. Google makes its pages adapt to what you the reader usually searches. God can't make His creations adapt? I just don't understand why not.

I remember my pastor saying there is nothing in the Bible about evolution. Well, there is nothing that says there isn't evolution either. In fact, Creation is only ONE page! Doesn't it seem like we are getting the cliff notes version of what really happened? There are books about DNA and cell division but the story of the entire earth and all of its contents is only one page? It feels like God gave His people the story a parent would give a child.

Child- "Mom how did that cake get there?"
Mom answers, "I made it."
And God is our Father so that makes sense to me.

Sorry this is all over the place. The evolution thing really bothers me. I just think that the Lord in all His wisdom created everything to grow, change and adapt, which is all evolution is right?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-12-2012, 05:14 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 9,443,687 times
Reputation: 7462
Here's what I say. Believe what you want to believe. The evolution vs creation debate is not that big of a deal. All that really matters is your relationship with Christ. If you feel we came from evolution, then that is your belief. No need to seek answers from anyone. I happen to believe in creationism but I don't care what other people think about it or their views. I don't seek answers for creationism because I chose to believe in that and am totally secure and validated by my belief. And I am totally okay with other Christians and unbelievers who believe otherwise because I know that is their choice. All of this has little to do with the big picture. Accepting Christ as your savior and the son of God and trying to follow Christ while living out this life. That's whats important and what you should keep to heart.

I will say this though. You should ALWAYS go to God about these types of questions and let him lead you to the truth. I prayed to God for answers and evidence for creationism and I found a whole world of it. I'm not going to give any of my sources however because it's a waste of time. All I'm saying is go to God. Ask him for the answers and to lead you to the truth. He will! You just have to take faith.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2012, 05:39 AM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
7,941 posts, read 6,961,848 times
Reputation: 13304
I'll try to answer all your questions as best I can. The differences you see in humans is a product of selective breeding, not mutations. EG: All dogs, can breed with one another. You can breed a Great Dane and a Dochsund, and they will produce a dog. The differences are because of selective breeding; emphasizing one trait and trying to get rid of other traits. Same in people. My guess is that after the human race was spread out over the world, after the fall of the Tower of Babel, one group prefered certain characteristices, and so those with the desired characteristics were more likely chosen to be married and bred. Undesired characteristics were not deemed attractive, didn't reproduce as much and were filtered out of the breeding pool. Also, in all cases I know of, light skinned people tend to live in northern climes, dark skinned people closer to the equator because dark skin works better when you're exposed to a lot of sun.
Despite differences in appearances though, a pigmy can still breed with a tall person and you will get a human. Different species cannot breed with one another. Same with horses, house cats, etc. But clearly you can't breed a tiger and a house cat. In the first place, the number of chromosomes will not match up.

There's nothing in the Bible about evolution because it didn't happen. God created the world in 6 days, it was perfect, and that was it. The corruption of the world is because of the fall (Gen 3) and the curse God put on the world.

You're science teacher and many others clearly don't understand biblical theology. If you accept evolution, biblical theology makes no sense at all. that's a longer topic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2012, 06:15 AM
 
33,586 posts, read 8,511,307 times
Reputation: 4700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankeerose00 View Post
I'm sorry to ask such a controversial question but honestly, this board is the only place I can ask such a question and get good answers.


I asked this very question about 12 years ago in our church Bible group. The leader of the group put his hand up to me and said, "We don't talk about the E word." I was embarrassed and shut down. Here I am 12 years later asking the same question hoping I'll get some answers.

I have a few questions actually.

First, people say that Adam and Eve were the first people and we descended from them. However everyone and everything was killed in the floods. Therefore all mankind would have come from Noah and his family, right? So wouldn't we be descendants of Noah? Why do people always say Adam and Eve?

So from Noah and his family came people of all races with traits that allow them to live better in their environments (darker skin closer to the equator, Eskimos with slanted eyes that help them in cold harsh weather, lighter skinned people in colder climates, etc)
How is that NOT evolution? If all people came from Noah's family and those people became the races as we know today (African, Asian, Native American, Hispanic) how is that not evolution? Their physical traits evolved into something to better adapt to their environments right?

I had biology in college and honestly what we learned never negated Creation and God. My science teacher from grammar school who first taught us of evolution is a strong Christian. Jane Goodall who is a world expert in primates and anthropology is a Christian. Why are Christians often made to choose between evolution and creation. To me, evolution is a result of creation.

I guess my other question is, why do we believe that God created the earth but can't believe He created it to grow and change. Man has created Smart Phones. Tivo learns what the user likes and starts to record things that it "thinks" you'll like. Google makes its pages adapt to what you the reader usually searches. God can't make His creations adapt? I just don't understand why not.

I remember my pastor saying there is nothing in the Bible about evolution. Well, there is nothing that says there isn't evolution either. In fact, Creation is only ONE page! Doesn't it seem like we are getting the cliff notes version of what really happened? There are books about DNA and cell division but the story of the entire earth and all of its contents is only one page? It feels like God gave His people the story a parent would give a child.

Child- "Mom how did that cake get there?"
Mom answers, "I made it."
And God is our Father so that makes sense to me.

Sorry this is all over the place. The evolution thing really bothers me. I just think that the Lord in all His wisdom created everything to grow, change and adapt, which is all evolution is right?

Allenkey gives a perfectly good answer - if you are able to jam your brain so it doesn't work.

On the other hand, if you are looking to reconcile God- belief with what seems to you validated evidence for evolution, then I'd say first that there are two possible answers to the initial creation.

Beginning with an earth created with us (eventually) in mind, the rest of the cosmos and planets can have their own plan.

So the evidence for a deep time earth from the first protoplasm appearing on Precambrian fossils (God having made DNA and put a cell together from that) through the seaforms, reptiles, dinosaurs and mammals through to us to about 10,000 BC (+/- 15,000 years) when God made us human (the Adam event) is all to be fitted into Genesis 1.20-25, and after all, if you are writing a story about the French revolution, do you have to spend more than a para. on the history of France up to then?

Alternatively, you can opt for Genesis being the best guess of the people who wrote it, perhaps inspired to approximate the events within the limits of bronze - age understanding.

Next, we are all descendents of Adam and eve, through Noah, though he was a sorta nodal link just as was Abraham and indeed David for the Hebrews and various historical personages for other cultures.

Which brings us to the variant races. Whatever stance one takes on racial types being derived from Noah's son, there is room for physical change in human and indeed animal types over a fe thousand or 100,000 years, provided they are changes within species. That's just change (that is the point being argued by Pararieperson above) . It isn't evolution in the Darwinist sense. And indeed, though I am persuaded by the case for evolution myself, I have to admit that there is precious little ongoing evidence for it doing much more than tinker with characteristics of species, and the argument that it takes time must sound a bit like a feeble excuse.

The idea that our colour or facial characteristics is linked to our environment is open to some challenge. In fact, blacks can live as well in Norway as they can in Namibia. Perhaps where races live is more to do with finding lebensraum rather than being of a particular appearance.

Finally. having established or agreed with you that evolution (however much of the theory one accepts) does not disprove God, one has to ask just why you found that Bible class has such a down on it.

I can only guess because I do not have a Bible class to ask and I'm not sure they would tell you if you asked. When I talked about jamming the brain to idling mode, I wasn't kidding. Asking where Bible and evolution coincide leads to asking questions outside the Box and that leads to doubt and the only REAL 'Sin' let me assure you, is Doubt.

What I suggest is that the main problem with evolution is that is contradicts a literal reading of Genesis -and that's odd, because it isn't every Christian by any means that takes it as literal. But it does seem that the contest between literal Genesis and Darwinism has spilled over in a theological polarization to where the divide is between God- belief and Evolution, where all good Christians HAVE to reject evolution which is a lie perpetrated by the Atheist Professor, if not by Satan Himself...sorry, 'himself'... which as I have explained it doesn't need to be.

But there IS a factor beyond that, though I wonder whether either side realise it. That evolution theory does tend to render a creator unnecessary. Yes, there COULD be a creator behind the process of evolution, but the point is that it works just as well without. The Evidence FOR a creator is gone.

That of course leads back to the abiogenesis question since there is no hard evidence for abiogenesis and some pretty tough questions about the theoretical mechanisms. It functions as a pretty good gap for God if one needs to say that 'without God, it would be impossible'.

That, I think, pretty much covers it. I'll be happy to address any other questions you have -if my learning stretches to it, and I hope it's helped to answer your questions at least as adequately as allen's 'Shaddap and just Believe.'

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-12-2012 at 06:26 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2012, 07:09 AM
 
682 posts, read 389,754 times
Reputation: 96
You shouldnít feel you have to apologize for seeking answers, we ALL have questions. Sadly that ďleaderĒ wasnít of God, sorry, but itís true. Because you were young and seeking. He should have taken the time to explain why he felt the way he did, using Jehovah Godís words. I understand where youíre coming from, because as I teen, I had many questions. Which either many couldnít answer, or even as a teen, the answers I received. Didnít make any sense.

Iíll try to answer any that I can, with Jehovahís help. Though Noah and his family were the only ones to survive the flood, Who did they come from? They were still descendants of the first couple. This is why we say we are from Adam and eve. Evolution, I believe does play a part of the many things we know. But the teachings of man coming from apes, itís a lie. Understand though the media, (years ago), made it seem like ALL biblical people were one race. We soon found out the truth, they wasnít! no one knows the color of Noah and his family skin, nor that of the first couple, even if we knew their race.

Oneís eyes donít become slanted because where they live, neither does their hair texture, Nor do there color. Iím in the south, black, (in race), I know people whoís black but very light skinned, and all we get here is sun. Iím medium brown skin , my ex-husband was darker. Yet one of our children cam out very light. Two of his siblings are also very light. Also I as well as many were born and raised in very cold states, My eyes isnít slanted, And I handled the cold just fine.

You have to understand this, God wanted us to learn about him, the reason why weíre here, And many other question we may have. He wants us ALL to learn what it takes to be saved , because he doesn't want us destroyed, (Ezek.33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel)? And sorry, but I havenít read anything yet from Godís word concerning ďevolutionĒ also it seems those who totally believe in evolution. Are trying to remove Glory from God, saying hereís the reason why...

As I said many times, science canít explain everything, though they do try. Also unlike a parentÖGod gives us the truth. so he canít be compare to any imperfect human. Keep in mind, God has NO problem with the word evolution, as long as itís NOT taking away from him. peace
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2012, 07:50 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,331,817 times
Reputation: 989
Adam and Eve were both created in one day, whole, able to converse with God, able to garden etc. They didn't come from a couple single-celled amoebas which got together and plotted all the different species on planet earth. The amoebas didn't get together to create a fish, or a couple of fish, the fish got tired of the water, left the water, changed its swim suit of scales for skin and hair and grew arms and legs. Then those fish developed into primates and those chimps wanted to become humanoids. Believe it or not, that is exactly what the evolutionists on "The history of Earth in 2 hours" said how humans came into being. I'm not making this up. It is all faith based. Not one shred of evidence was provided. Just their word was supposedly good enough, with some very impressive cartoons to seal the deal.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2012, 08:14 AM
 
2,086 posts, read 1,301,780 times
Reputation: 1395
"Couldn't evolution be the answer to how and not the answer to why?"

-Stan Marsh
South Park
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2012, 09:37 AM
 
56 posts, read 77,636 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vejadu View Post
"Couldn't evolution be the answer to how and not the answer to why?"

-Stan Marsh
South Park
+1. Sorry that you have received such confusion. The question is really irrelevant to Christian theology. From my view there are two foundational issues:

1. The world (universe) was created. The seen being created by the unseen spiritual world. Whether that was 18 billion years ago or 10,000 years ago does not really matter. The universe was created and is not God in itself.

2. Man became a living soul, responsible to God. We are not dogs or apes, but have the Spirit of God and are morally responsible for our actions and our sins. Whether God chose to breathe his Spririt and image into something created over time or in one swoop is ultimately irrelevant to the issue. You are now in God's image and responsible to Him.

It is interesting to see the things people get stuck on. For instance you mention the different races, but most people never consider that Adam and Eve could easily be bi-racial which would easily explain the races of the earth if you believe in creationism.

It is also interesting that most 6 day creationists believe in what I would call super evolution. They not only believe in evolution but that it happened much faster than most scientists believe possible. It comes as a necessity from their view of the flood. If they truly believe that Noah brought 7 pairs of all clean animals and 2 pairs of all unclean animals in the entire world into the ark the only way they could possibly fit is by bringing ancestors. For ex. an animal like a dog became the father of all dogs, wolves, dingoes, etc. and some horse ancestor became all zebras, horses, etc. They believe that after the flood these limited animals rapidly evolved over a few thousand years to provide all the diversity we see today.

As a Christian and someone who values science I see no conflict vs. the Bible in an old universe and believing that the flood was local to the middle east and killed all human life on the planet. There is no need to come up with elaborate theories of how the speed of light has changed, or God has tricked us into believing the earth is old, or that evolution occurred rapidly. Usually the simplest explanation is best.

If people are going to reject Jesus they should reject him for the right reason, which is that they refuse to acknowledge their moral accountability before their creator and need for forgiveness. They should not reject him because of incorrect bible translations or supposed conflicts with science and reason that are not conflicts at all but just lack of understanding or forcing interpretations that are not required onto a text.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2012, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Central Virginia
834 posts, read 1,932,492 times
Reputation: 636
Quote:
Yes, there COULD be a creator behind the process of evolution, but the point is that it works just as well without. The Evidence FOR a creator is gone.
I've seen so many people over the years come to this conclusion and frankly, it broke my heart. I don't care what science discovers, I don't see a reason to ever doubt God's existence.

Quote:
My eyes isn’t slanted, And I handled the cold just fine.
Quote:
In fact, blacks can live as well in Norway as they can in Namibia. Perhaps where races live is more to do with finding lebensraum rather than being of a particular appearance.
Yes but I was speaking of thousands of years ago, before North America was discovered. Of course today, people of different races CAN live in different places. But that isn't the question. Looking at where people came from originally is where you see their differences. ie: Mongolians, Eskimos, Native Americans, Caucasians, Middle Easterners, Asians, Hispanic. Are we supposed to pretend we don't notice that an Aborigine from Australia, a pygmy from Africa, a Sherpa from the Himalayas, a Mexican and a Swedish person all look like they came from the same place and all look the same?

I guess that's the simpler question. Where did the races come from? If we all came from Noah's family, how did we get different races? And please don't say we are all the human race. People didn't just change. They changed to reflect their environment.
Maybe it's the evolution word that throws people off. Maybe we should say "Adaptation" instead? Like God has allowed for adaptation for his creations?


Quote:
but most people never consider that Adam and Eve could easily be bi-racial which would easily explain the races of the earth if you believe in creationism.
That's a possibility, but still it doesn't explain where we'd get other peoples from. Black, white, Hispanic, native American, Asian. We all came from two different races?

Quote:
an animal like a dog became the father of all dogs, wolves, dingoes, etc. and some horse ancestor became all zebras, horses, etc
This reminds me of the Russian Fox experiments we learned about. That taking wild foxes and breeding them over and over for generations not only results in a fox that acts like a dog and loves people, but they start to get actual spots on them and change colors, their noses got rounder. They started to resemble dogs. Animals over time can grow and change into other animals. Wouldn't that be considered evolution? If not, what is the word for it.

I think that is the ultimate in the brilliance of God. He created a being to adapt.

It bothers me that so many people use science as a reason to doubt the existence of God. To me, the more we discover science, the more I realize just how great our Father is. I realize how little man-kind knows.

I just can't get past the fact that the story of the entire world and every living species, plant and animal consists of ONE page. God has told us the truth. I have no doubts about that. But He didn't give us every last detail. And why should He? We are his children. He doesn't owe us an explanation. That's why wherever science makes a discovery that people think discounts the Bible, I think the opposite. I see God in science. The brilliance behind how everything works. We are only beginning to peel the layers off His creation. We will never know the answer to everything. That's why I don't know why the church I grew up in basically forced us to choose God or Science.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2012, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,131 posts, read 9,849,699 times
Reputation: 14799
I believe that the topic of 'creation vs evolution' has little to do with 'science' and everything to do with 'accountability to God.' (Frankly, the 'science of evolution' takes so many liberties with sound scientific principles that it contradicts itself). So, why to so many cling so tenaciously to the 'THEORY' of evolution? Perhaps it is because man wants to be 'god' or in control; and it is very difficult to do that, when/if one has a 'creator.'

If one can conclude with any set of data that they are randomly evolved from swamp gas or some other natural occurance, then, I really have no higher accountability than to myself! In other words, I can be God! ----- But, since I obviously did not 'create' or bring myself into existence, something beyond my control must have occurred. The moment I even remotely allow myself to consider the existence of a God, much less His creation of mankind as described in the Bible, ... I can no longer 'be the god of my own life!' Therefore, bring it on! "I'll fight to the death over the unproven notion that I am an evolved being ... even though all of the real evidence says otherwise."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:18 AM.

© 2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top