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Nah, it's you who is deceived. Or maybe you could clarify what exactly I am deceived about. Paul did say those things, including the part about the keys to victory.
Are you perfectly sinless? Yes, or no?
No,
I keep the Ten Commandments of God...all Ten of them...and I learn more about sin everyday...as He fine tunes me...daily He sends a test my way, to make me make a choice...and it is through this process that he is perfecting me through His mercy and His grace. He knows my heart Finn Jarber...He knows that it is His will be done in and through me that is what I pray earnestly and passionately for.
I do not willfully sin...I am learning deeply, the truth concerning sin more and more every day...and I am not deaf and blind and full of pride...I listen to Him and allow Him to guide me.....I submit to Him and grow ever more nearer to Him.
Every believer is blameless before God, but in this passage he is talking about their duties and conversations in Thessalonia among the believers, which went exactly as planned. He is not trying to say he is and always will be sinless. Yes, Paul and the others did their best to avoid sin, but even they were not perfect. The Bible is very clear that only one person has been perfect, and that was Jesus. All the others were sinners. All believers today are sinners, - saved sinners that is.
This is what I mean about the pitiful doctrines of men. Believers are all blameless before God? Tell that to the Sardis believers who Yeshua rebuked because their works were not perfect.
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write ; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest , and art dead. 2 Be watchful , and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die : for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard , and hold fast , and repent . If therefore thou shalt not watch , I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh , the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:1-5
So obviously Yeshua did not think they were blameless. What you espouse seems to be a popular Protestant concept which contradicts the plain teaching of Yeshua.
I keep the Ten Commandments of God...all Ten of them...and I learn more about sin everyday...as He fine tunes me...daily He sends a test my way, to make me make a choice...and it is through this process that he is perfecting me through His mercy and His grace. He knows my heart Finn Jarber...He knows that it is His will be done in and through me that is what I pray earnestly and passionately for.
I do not willfully sin...I am learning deeply, the truth concerning sin more and more every day...and I am not deaf and blind and full of pride...I listen to Him and allow Him to guide me.....I submit to Him and grow ever more nearer to Him.
I rest assured...it is well with my soul.
Yes, or no? The obvious answer is no. You are a sinner, like the rest of us, no matter how hard you work on trying to avoid sin.
This is what I mean about the pitiful doctrines of men. Believers are all blameless before God? Tell that to the Sardis believers who Yeshua rebuked because their works were not perfect.
Dear MTD, my fellow sinner,
Yes, that is what being saved is all about. When you are saved, you are blameless, and your sins will not be counted against you. That is the promise of Jesus Christ, so you better believe it.
Quote:
So obviously Yeshua did not think they were blameless. What you espouse seems to be a popular Protestant concept which contradicts the plain teaching of Yeshua.
The "pitiful doctrine I espouse" (listen to yourself), is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which can be summarized in one verse:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
You do not believe that Jesus saves those who believe in Him, and you mock those who do. Are you expecting God to reward you for telling stuff like this to people? You are preaching legalism, that yor works can save you. Do you realize that.
Just a couple of points that IMO seem to be missing from this discussion:
1). The law (10 Commandments, et.al) were given to that we could recognize our own sin and separation from God and need for the saving Grace offered through Jesus Christ. They were not given to show us what we must do to get or stay right with God through our own effort, ... because we lack the ability to do that in our flesh.
2). If/when one is 'born again' (Spirit vs flesh) in God's Holy Spirit, they 'become a new creation in Christ' and are 'sealed unto the day of redemption' ... aka: They have ETERNAL life ... which, by definition, lasts forever -- or it isn't eternal life. Without Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit, one does not have eternal life ... which is the basis of what Christ meant when He said, "I have come that you may have life" (something you didn't already have). In this respect, I am saved because Christ is holding onto me, not because I am holding onto him) --- (Note: please do not confuse this with any notion that eternal life is automatic or that everyone ultimately has it).
3). The OP spoke about 'willful, habitual sin.' While all Christians ... as well-intentioned as they may be, commit 'acts of sin' (ommission, commission, etc) ... willful, rebellious sin is another matter. The purpose of the Law/Commandments in the life of a Believer, is to reveal to us when our inner man/spirit is out of relationship with God. Our response (be it repentance or self-justification) perhaps reveals more about the true condition of our heart towards God, than our sin itself. As Jesus said, some "honor Him with their lips, but, their hearts are far from Him." God sees the heart and He knows His own ... people, instead, see the outer man, and judge (discern, not condemn) by a different standard than God.
This, in the context with the initial OP point, suggests a different hypothesis. 'Is it possible for one who is truly 'born again' in God's Holy Spirit and has eternal life ... to continue to willfully sin and rebel against God?" --- AND/OR ..."Does a professing Christian who lives their life in willful sin and rebellion against God ... actually have eternal life to begin with?"
Great post!
One that is born-again has a new nature. While we may stumble, but the individual can not rest in that sin.
If professing born again has absolutely no changed life, it is a red flag that they are not born again. Repentance is the response of regeneration. Seed that fell upon the wayside.
One that is born-again has a new nature. While we may stumble, but the individual can not rest in that sin.
If professing born again has absolutely no changed life, it is a red flag that they are not born again. Repentance is the response of regeneration. Seed that fell upon the wayside.
Yes, that would be a red flag in self-examination of faith.
2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
Yes, that is what being saved is all about. When you are saved, you are blameless, and your sins will not be counted against you. That is the promise of Jesus Christ, so you better believe it.
The "pitiful doctrine I espouse" (listen to yourself), is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which can be summarized in one verse:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
You do not believe that Jesus saves those who believe in Him, and you mock those who do. Are you expecting God to reward you for telling stuff like this to people? You are preaching legalism, that yor works can save you. Do you realize that.
Being saved is all about forgiveness and then continue to sin? Not according to Jesus. He said its better to pluck out your eye than use it to sin. Cut off your hand likewise. Thats the way Jesus feels about sin. Men treat it as if it were simply an old familiar friend!
I note that you made no attempt to explain why the Lord rebuked the Sardis Christians whos works were not perfect. According to your belief it is JESUS who is a legalist!
On the other hand I do believe John 3:16. If one believes in Jesus he will be saved. Then his life will be one of faith that produces works of righteousness though the Holy Ghost power.
1. Sin is the transgression of the law of God (The Ten Commandments). (There is no other definition in the Bible)
3. Willful sin.
A. No sacrifice available (OT): Numbers 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
B. No sacrifice available (NT) Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
As someone who has struggled with this issue it seems you are missing some things. You have too narrow a view of sin.
The rich young ruler kept all the 10 commandments yet Jesus explicitly said he was not saved. Jesus did not dispute that he kept the commandments but told him that he only lacked one thing, and told him to sell all his possessions and follow him.
In the sermon on the mount he expanded the commandments, murder is being angry, adultery is looking, ignoring your neighbor in need is a sin, etc. and said you have to do positive things, go the extra mile, turn your cheek, give to those who ask, cut off your hand, poke out your eye, etc.
Paul kept all 10 commandments by his own testimony, the same testimony given to the Thessalonians, but he was not saved.
Moses deliberately sinned against God by striking the rock out of anger, but he was transfigured with Christ, so apparently Numbers 15:30 did not apply to him. Or maybe he delivered Israel without truly repenting??
King David deliberately disobeyed many commandments, the top 10 and others such as numbering the people, but God called him a man after his own heart.
The only way you can believe that you are not continuing to sin is to redefine obedience to God to things that you can control. It is easy to say I don't kill people, harder to say that I never get angry, and even harder to say that I sold everthing I had and gave it to those who asked me.
My confession each week is to forgive my sins known and unknown, things done and left undone. Most of my worst sins are things left undone. Keeping the 10 commandments is easier than obeying God.
The verse that really turned me around was in James. "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guillty of breaking it all". "Judgement without Mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgement!"
This combined with Jesus' definition of keeping the law set me free to see the grace of God in Jesus Christ.
I truly appreciate your discipleship, but it is the human tendency to fall into laciviouness or legalism. It is more difficult to accept ALL the scriptures and apply them with honesty to your own situation.
Verna, we both know that we disagree on this subject. I had a pitiful time this morning while trying to sleep. Horrifying to me. I don't know if I was really awake or asleep, but some thoughts went through my head, and I was so ashamed. Horrified by them once I was sure I was awake, I struggled with that quite awhile this morning.
I am older now, and this type of thing is what I struggle with most: thoughts, intentions of which I have to take strong control, consideration of lying, bad attitudes, etc.
Since I was reared in a church with a very poor definition of sin, I have to study sin, trying to get a good grasp of the meaning. Right now, I am reading R.C. Ryle. That helps for me.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:8-9.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27.
God says, "No" .
....and I believe Him .
.....blessings.
i agree--our spirit comes before God immediately--and He does hold us accountable---His consequences i am sure will be fair just and merciful
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I had a pitiful time this morning while trying to sleep. Horrifying to me. I don't know if I was really awake or asleep, but some thoughts went through my head, and I was so ashamed. Horrified by them once I was sure I was awake, I struggled with that quite awhile this morning. 
