Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
you said that we must have faith in Jesus....I have put all my faith in Jesus and I have told you this and yet you warn me of my impending destruction in Hell.
Let me ask you this question?
You must have faith in Jesus Christ....How do you have faith? How did you get it?
For 22 years of my life I was persuaded to believe, as most are persuaded to believe, the false doctrine taught by Modern Day Christianity, that we could receive eternal life despite our ongoing bondage to sin. We are told we are born again children of God and saved forever the moment we say: "I believe in Jesus and receive Him as my Savior." The false teachers offer this verse as proof of the sinner's instant salvation:
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life;"
However, the rest of that verse is seldom quoted:
"…but he who does not OBEY the Son shall not see life, but the WRATH OF GOD abides on him." John 3:36 NAS
They are being told that they do not have to obey, the only requirement is that they "believe." Yet the apostle Paul said that the mind that will not subject itself to the law of God is a carnal (sinful) mind and hostile toward God. He wrote:
"...the CARNAL MIND is enmity [hostile] against God: for it IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD," Romans 8:7 KJV
Is it possible that a person will inherit eternal life even if that person is hostile toward God and will not obey His law? All major denominations now say: "YES!", the carnal person will still be saved if he "believes." The apostle Paul says "NO!":
"For to be carnally minded is death;" Romans 8:6 KJV
This devastating doctrine of "The saved (but still carnal) Christian" has been firmly established in our churches because the meaning of the word believe is not always clear. The only true definition of what it means to "believe" is the scriptural one found in John 3:36 (see above).
Examine it carefully and you will see that ONLY THOSE WHO OBEY TRULY BELIEVE.
THE PROOF! (John 3:36)
IF: One who believes in the Son has eternal life,
AND: One who does not obey shall not see life,
THEN: The one who does not obey, does not believe.
For it is clear that the one who shall not see life, could not possibly have eternal life. Scripture does not allow any one who will not obey to be counted a "believer." Thus any church that considers a willfully disobedient person to have eternal life is teaching a fatal error. One may be willfully disobedient or a believer, but not both. "THE CARNAL CHRISTIAN" IS SATAN'S LIE.
Satan's lie ("the carnal Christian") is carefully designed to soothe the conscience of those who seek the easy way. You may be sure that all who profess it to be an option are deceived to some degree. Paul did not teach that we had a third choice; quite to the contrary he said:
1."For if you live according to the flesh YOU WILL DIE, but
2. if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body YOU WILL LIVE." Romans 8:13.
In the New Testament, just as in the Old Testament, there are only two choices: death or life - sin or righteousness. Paul gave no hope to the sinful man when he said:
"You are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness." Romans 6:16.
In his letter to the Galatians, verse 5:19, Paul described the deeds of the flesh (our sinful nature) and then went on to make the requirement for the cleansing of the flesh absolutely clear.
"Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." Galatians 5:24.
Please stop and take note of the past tense that Paul used. The apostle did not say they will crucify the flesh, he did not say that they had a choice or that it would be done for them. He said they had already crucified the flesh.
Those who truly belong to Christ Jesus - those who are "His" - have already crucified their own sinful nature. Therefore, by that verse those who are seeking God have an infallible measuring stick within themselves. They have only to look at their own lifestyle to see where they stand with God. If they have not yet totally committed themselves to put to death the deeds of the body through obedience to God's law, they do not yet "belong" to Jesus. No one can deceive you, nor can you deceive yourself if you
measure by the Ten Commandments.
The strategy of Satan in the modern church has been to make people believe that they have eternal life the moment they accept Jesus as their personal Savior. (A very easy path indeed!) The act of receiving Jesus does bring joy to the heart; however, it reveals that they now have the right (or power) to become a child of God. (born-again) They now have the gift of faith from God which enables them to surrender this life to God. (If they will!) The apostle John showed us the process of salvation when he wrote this verse:
"But as many as RECEIVED Him, to them He gave the right TO BECOME children of God..." (born-again) John 1:12.
Jesus said:
"…the way is narrow that leads to life, and FEW are those who find it." Matthew 7:14.
The first step on that narrow path to life is to repent of our sin and accept (receive) Jesus as our Savior. The next step is to accept Jesus as our LORD and surrender all of our heart, our soul, our strength and our mind to serve Him forever. The mark of a servant is that he obeys the commandments of his Master.
SALVATION WITHOUT OBEDIENCE??
How would you answer these four questions concerning your relationship with God?
Yes or No
1. Do I truly love God ____ ____
2. Does God know me? ____ ____
3. Do I abide in God? ____ ____
4. Do I really know God? ____ ____
According to the New Testament these questions can only be answered "yes" by one who is keeping the commandments of God. I certainly would not expect the reader to believe this statement without ample proof. To find that proof, let us examine God's word .
1. Do I truly love God?
THE TEACHING OF JESUS:
As our Lord was teaching in Jerusalem, one of the Pharisees who was trained in the law of Moses, approached Jesus and attempted to test Him with this question:
"Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Jesus said to him:
"What is written in the Law? How do you read?"
The lawyer responded from the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus:
"You shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus agreed with him and said: "DO THIS and you will live." Luke 10:25.
(Deuteronomy 6:5 - Love God)
(Leviticus 19:18 - Love your neighbor)
In 1st Corinthians 13:4 Paul teaches how we are to love our neighbor, but how does one love a God whom we cannot even see? It is just at this point that many are led astray from the truth.
THE SCRIPTURES DEFINE HOW TO "LOVE GOD".
"For this is the LOVE of God, that we keep His commandments." 1 John 5:3.
"He who has my commandments and keeps them he it is who LOVES Me." John 14:21.
"If you LOVE Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15.
The word of God is clear. There can be no possible misunderstanding by those who are willing to hear the truth. The LOVE that God asks of us, is that we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS!
The practical result of obedience to God's law is that we will finally overcome sin. It is this battle to conquer sin which tests our faith.
James teaches that only those whose faith has been tested and approved will receive the crown of (eternal) life. He wrote:
"Blessed is a man who preserves under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to those who LOVE Him." James 1:12.
James is saying that those who are approved and receive the "crown of life" are those who LOVE the Lord; and Jesus said that those who LOVE Him are those who KEEP His commandments.
CAN YOU KEEP GOD'S COMMANDMENTS IF YOU ARE BREAKING THEM?
2. Does God know me?
THE TEACHING OF JESUS:
As He was teaching the "Sermon on the Mount", Jesus warned His disciples that even though someone may say "Jesus is Lord" and manifests a "spiritual gift", these things are not proof of Salvation.
Rather, it is only the one who does the will of God who will enter the Kingdom of God.
"Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who DOES THE WILL of My Father who is in heaven.
On that day many will say to Me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?"
And I will declare to them, "I never KNEW you depart from Me you EVILDOERS." Matthew 7:21.
THE SCRIPTURES DEFINE WHOM GOD "KNOWS":
"But if one LOVES God, one is KNOWN by Him." 1 Corinthians 8:3.
"He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who LOVES me." John 14:21.
"The Lord KNOWETH them that are HIS." 2 Timothy 2:19.
["And they that ARE CHRIST'S have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Galatians 5:24]
God knows all men, but only a few are "known" by the Lord in the Biblical sense, that is, as Adam "knew" Eve. To be "known by God" represents the spiritual union of Jesus with his people. (The Bridegroom and His bride.) Those who say "Lord, Lord" yet continue to willfully sin have never experienced this union. Thus Jesus will say to the EVILDOERS: "Depart from me..."
Who are the "EVILDOERS"? This word comes from the Greek "Anomia" which means illegality or violation of the law and generally wickedness. The apostle John used the same word "Anomia" to give us a clear definition of what true "sin" is. He said:
"...sin is the transgression of the law." John 3:4.
------------Anomia------------
Therefore, a literal translation of what Jesus is going to declare to the EVILDOERS who say "Lord, Lord," is this:
"I never KNEW you, depart from Me you that transgress the law "ANOMIAN" IN TODAY'S CHURCH.
Another revealing use of the word "anomia" is recorded in Matthew's gospel. During the Olivet discourse, as Jesus was speaking to the men who were to become His apostles, He foretold of the conditions that would exist near the end times. He said:
"And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. And because lawlessness (Anomia) is increased most people's LOVE will grow cold." Matthew 24:11.
As you look about your world, your church, and perhaps even yourself, do you recognize any of the conditions that Jesus said would come to pass?
1. Many false teachers will arise (within the church) to lead the people astray.
2. And lawlessness (transgression of the law) will increase
3. And LOVE (the keeping of the commandments) will grow cold.
IS THIS "LEGALISM"? NO! Satan, the father of lies, has enticed man to disobey God's commands from the beginning of creation. The charge of "legalism" against those who teach obedience to the law of God is just another one of Satan's deceptions. It is not a "work of the flesh" to obey the commandments unless you are depending on your obedience to earn forgiveness (justification). On the other hand, a willing obedience to God's moral law is the scriptural evidence of a true saving faith. James challenged the brethren to show him the reality of their faith without also showing him their works of faith. He asked them: "What use is it my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can that faith save him?" James 2:14.
It is clear that "Faith without works is dead," yet it is also clear that no man can earn forgiveness by doing good works, for we are justified (forgiven) through our faith in a living Christ. However, if a man accepts Jesus as both his personal Savior and LORD, that man will surely obey Him and keep His commandments, no matter what it may cost. If we do not obey Him, He is not our Lord. Through our obedience Jesus cleanses us from the doing of sin (sanctification). First the law sends us to Jesus Christ for justification (forgiveness), and then Jesus sends us back to the law for sanctification (cleansing) by the Holy Spirit. Paul warned that if we wish to see the Lord, we MUST go through the process of sanctification. "Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD:" Hebrews 12:14.
Without the light of God's law to expose his sins, a man walks in desperate darkness, for he must depend upon his own heart to decide what is good or evil. The prophet Jeremiah said: "The heart of man is deceitful above all things," and the Proverbs teach that: "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes." Therefore, if we do not have a permanent standard (carved in stone) by which to measure sin, we will always deceive ourselves.
In these "latter days," many teachers who claim to speak for God have turned away from the law of God. It has become more popular to obey their "inner voice" than the voice that spoke from Mount Sinai. However, the true test of a teacher's "spirit" is found in the book of Jeremiah. God said: "But if they had stood in my council, then they would have proclaimed MY WORDS to My people, And they would have TURNED THEM from their evil way and from the evil of their doings." Jeremiah 23:22.
Those who speak by the "Spirit of Christ" will always teach others to immediately and completely cease from committing sin. They will always proclaim "HIS WORDS."
WHICH WORDS ARE "HIS WORDS"?
When Jesus faced the temptations in the wilderness, he declared to Satan:
"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4.
Our Lord was quoting from the book of Deuteronomy (8:3). When that verse is considered in context you can see that it clearly refers to the keeping of God's commandments:
(8:1) "All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, THAT YE MAY LIVE,
(8:2) "And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove (test) thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, or not.
(8:3) "And He humbled thee...and fed thee with manna...that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THE LORD DOTH MAN LIVE."
(8:6) "Therefore thou shalt KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of the Lord thy God, to walk in His ways, and to fear Him."
Both Jesus and the book of Jeremiah are referring to the same "WORDS," those that proceeded from the mouth of God on Mount Sinai; the Ten Commandments!
If there is still any doubt in your mind, think about this: The English word "Commandment" is translated from the Hebrew "dabar" which means: "a word." Therefore that which was carved in stone forever
were the Ten "dabars" (words) of God. Legalism? No, I think not, unless Jesus, the prophets and the
apostles were all legalists. Now let us return to the four questions.
3. Do I abide in God?
THE TEACHING OF JESUS:
At the Last Supper, Jesus taught His disciples about our spiritual relationship with Him. Our Lord used the branch and the vine to illustrate our complete dependence upon Him. He explained that the branch can bear no fruit without the constant flow of life from the vine. Jesus said to them:
"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who ABIDES in Me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit..." "If a man does not ABIDE in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and BURNED." John 15:5.
ABIDE is from the Greek "Meno." It means to remain in, to stay, to dwell.
THE SCRIPTURES DEFINE HOW TO "ABIDE" IN GOD:
"All who keep His commandments ABIDE in Him, and He in them." 1 John 3:24.
"If you keep My commandments you will ABIDE in My Love." John 15:10.
The church of today is empty of true spiritual strength and bears little resemblance to the church of the first century because it refuses to ABIDE in God. The scriptures plainly teach that the Father promises to answer only the prayers of those who ABIDE in Him and obey His law:
"If you ABIDE in Me, and My WORDS abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you." John 15:7.
"And we receive from Him whatever we ask, because we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS." 1 John 3:22.
"If one turns away his ear from hearing THE LAW, even his prayer is an abomination." Proverbs 28:9.
A thousand may pray until their knees are bloody, but if they are not keeping His commandments, God says their prayer is an abomination to Him. Yet the prayers of only one man who abides in Him can change the lives and circumstances of many:
"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16.
"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right, is righteous." 1 John 3:7.
God's word is painfully clear. If one does not keep His commandments, one does not ABIDE in Him. If one does not ABIDE in Him, God does not answer his prayer; and he will become like the withered branch, cast forth, thrown into the fire and burned.
4. Do I really know God?
THE TEACHING OF JESUS:
After the Last Supper, Jesus was praying to the Father and spoke these words:
"And this is eternal life, that they KNOW Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3.
THE SCRIPTURES DEFINE WHO "KNOWS" GOD:
"And by this we may be sure that we KNOW Him, If we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS." "He who says "I KNOW Him" but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." "No one who ABIDES in Him sins; no one who sins has either seen Him or KNOWN Him." 1 John 2:3 - 2:4 - 3:6.
God's word is indeed a piercing sword. The apostle John is saying that if you are not able to keep His commandments, you do not yet know God. And Jesus said if you do not know God, you will not have eternal life.
These are hard words to hear, especially for those who would prefer to have their "ears tickled." Many thousands of words have been spent in vain trying to twist these icy clear verses. Many thousands
of hours have been wasted trying to prove that these simple verses do not mean what they say. Yet their unshakeable truth is our protection, for we cannot be deceived if we will but listen and accept what they declare: "THOSE WHO TRULY KNOW GOD, KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS."
DISCIPLES - BEWARE!
The New Testament often uses the "wolf" as a symbol of false teachers. Please take heed for among your own selves there are many friendly and even affectionate "wolves." The church is their hunting
ground, and there they prey upon the true flock of God. Paul warned us of these "wolves in sheep's clothing." He said: "I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw the disciples after them." Acts 20:29.
The warning Paul gave to the Ephesian elders is relevant today, for Satan has not changed his methods or his tools. The sad thing is that many deceived elders and pastors think they are truly working for God by teaching against His law. The law of God protects the "little flock" like a high fence. The Ten Commandments keep the false prophets out and the disciples within. The light from the law exposes both false doctrines and false teachers. Therefore, the wolves must try to knock down the fence, so they may lure the sheep out into the world, where they become easy prey. Many of these false teachers say: "Jesus is Lord" yet they have become unsuspecting servants of Satan, the "great deceiver." Here are some of the distortions they use to undermine the law of God:
"No one ever kept the commandments perfectly."
"Jesus has fulfilled the law for us."
"We are not under the law."
"The law is only for the Jews."
These twistings of scripture are simply excuses for sin; pleasant words for itching ears. One very deceptive lie being taught by some is that we are indeed to "obey the commandments" but not the Ten Commandments. They say that the New Testament commandments we are to keep are:
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart...and your neighbor as yourself." (See Matthew 22:37)
Jesus did say that these were the most important commandments (precepts) in the Old Testament, because they compressed all the teachings of the Law and the prophets into two thoughts. But was
He really giving us "new" commandments? Let us take a closer look...
Our Lord was quoting from the book of Deuteronomy:
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one LORD; and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. And these WORDS which I command you this day shall be upon your heart; and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and you shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise." Deuteronomy 6:4.
The whole 6th chapter of Deuteronomy is about obedience to the TEN WORDS of God, which Moses had just finished reading to the people of Israel. In both the Old Testament and the New, we are taught to love God by keeping His commandments.
"For this is the love of God, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS." 1 John 5:3.
WHICH COMMANDMENTS?
When Jesus was asked this direct question: "What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" Jesus gave the man this direct answer: "Keep the commandments." When the man asked: "Which" commandments, Jesus quoted from the Ten Commandments and added: "love your neighbor as your self." (see Matthew 19:17).
Our Lord has never revoked the law that He himself gave us. The scriptures teach that it could only have been through Jesus that those Ten WORDS were written upon the tablets of stone over 3,400 years ago: "All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made." John 1:3.
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and FOREVER." Hebrews 13:8.
If there is any doubt in your mind which commandments we are to obey, Jesus Himself pointed specifically to the Fifth commandment and called it both the COMMANDMENT of God and the WORD of
God (not Moses) when he rebuked the Pharisees and the Scribes for teaching that it was all right not to provide for one's parents if the money was given to the temple as an offering. Jesus said: "And why do you transgress the COMMANDMENT OF GOD for the sake of your tradition?" Matthew 15:3.
"Thus have ye made the COMMANDMENT OF GOD of none effect by your tradition." Matthew 15:6.
"Making the WORD OF GOD of none effect through your tradition..." Mark 7:13.
Jesus did not condemn the Pharisees for keeping the law, but for disregarding it. His contempt for all those who are "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" has never changed. In Mark's version of this incident Jesus added:
"You nicely set aside the COMMANDMENT OF GOD in order to keep your tradition." Mark 7:9.
As it was then, so it is now. If we would enter life we must trust only God's word, and turn away from the "leaven" of the modern Pharisees; those religious leaders who would teach us to set aside the commandments of God and follow their "new" traditions. Beware of those who smile and say: "Oh yes, we should try to keep God's commandments, but if you don't - well, you are still saved by grace." That is a LIE! If you have grace you are able to do what God has commanded you to do.
THE "NEW" TRADITION
Satan's greatest accomplishment has been to get the "church" to set aside God's Sabbath day. He has caused many to disobey God by doing away with the Fourth Commandment. Please, don't listen to him!
The seventh day Sabbath stands forever, just like the stone on which it was carved by the finger of God. You may search the scriptures end to end and you will not find one verse that says that the Sabbath was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week. Nor one verse that says the requirement to keep the Sabbath has been canceled.
We can clearly see where God commanded us to "Remember the sabbath day." (Exodus 20:8) Where did God change it? Since there is no scriptural authority for disregarding the Sabbath then it could only have been changed by the tradition of man! There were TEN commandments given by the very mouth of God for all to hear that day on Mount Sinai. There are still ten. If you are not keeping the Sabbath then you are breaking God's law.
BUT WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW!
There has always been confusion sown into the church about Paul's position on the Ten Commandments. Peter warned us that unlearned and unstable men would twist the teachings of Paul. (2 Peter 3:15) The
apostle Paul himself settled the matter for all time. He said: "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD." 1 Corinthians 7:19.
"Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, WE UPHOLD THE LAW." Romans 3:31.
Therefore, knowing that God's word cannot possibly contradict itself we can be sure that when Paul said: "we are not under the law," he did not mean that we are no longer required to keep God's commandments. IF YOU WOULD ENTER LIFE..."
I know that many of you who are reading this are still saying:
"legalism" or "Phariseeism" or perhaps, "No! Never! Salvation is all by grace. I am not to do anything."
Friends, to you I can only let God's word speak:
"...he who DOES NOT OBEY the Son shall not see life, but THE WRATH OF GOD RESTS UPON HIM." John 3:36.
Surely all would agree that to obey the Son would require us to "do" something. That "something" is the total surrender of our self-life in obedience to God. Through that obedience we "work out our salvation (from sin) with fear and trembling." When we repent of sin and surrender our lives to Jesus Christ in faith, God puts His Holy Spirit into us and by His strength and grace we are enabled to walk the narrow way that leads to life.
As Jesus spoke to his disciples following the sermon on the Mount, he warned them of the difficulties they would face along that "narrow way." He said:
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way EASY that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are MANY. For the gate is narrow and the way is HARD that leads to [eternal] life, AND THOSE WHO FIND IT ARE FEW." Matthew 7:13.
All who are seeking the way that leads to life; please listen to the words of Jesus as he spoke to the "Rich Young Ruler." Try to imagine yourself to be the young (and very religious) man who sought out the Lord on the hot and dusty road to Jerusalem. You approach the Master and ask him: "Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
Look into the eyes of the Son of God, as He says to you:
"IF YOU WOULD ENTER LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS." Matthew 19:17.
Our Lord Jesus is the same "yesterday, and today, and forever." He did not have one plan of salvation for that young man and another for you. Will you listen to the theologians of the world (who don't even
agree with each other) or will you let the simple clear words of Jesus decide the issue?
If this message bothers you, and you go to your Pastor or counselor for advice, I suggest you ask him this question: Do you keep the Ten commandments? (including the Sabbath?) If he says "No," remember
this verse:
"The one who says, "I have come to Know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, [false] and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4.
Let God's word alone guide your way. Do not trust someone because of their position, or good deeds, or pleasing personality. Instead test them by the pure and simple teachings of the Bible. The truth will set you free, but a liar can deceive you!
The Bible teaches that God's message to Man is very simple. It has never changed. It is this:
"FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN." Ecclesiastes 12:14.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cimaroon
Verna, I really wanted to take some time and think this through before answering your post to me because I truly don’t want to offend you, you are after all my sister in Christ. But I have to say, you seem truly self righteous. I don't think you are seeing what you are doing and how you put others down and trample the belief that God has given them. I have said nothing condemning to you through this entire conversation and you need to hear your tone, it is so un-Christ like. Where is your love and compassion? You claim that you keep all ten commandments, I don't see how, for Galatians 5:14 said For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself....and love does no wrong to his neighbor.
I have shared my belief with you concerning my faith in Christ; for I have told you that I believe in Christ, and I trust in God's promise. I believe he is the way, the truth and the life, and no one goes to the Father but by him. I believe that one must believe in order to be saved, but I also believe that God will save us all because he will give us our faith as well. He will make us believe. For not only is salvation a gift, but our faith is a gift as well. Instead of embracing me as a fellow sister in Christ you have instead condemned someone he has died for.
Dear cimaroon...I do not condemn you...I love you with the love of Christ...so much so, that I will tell you in all sincerity, the saving truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in order that you might have a chance to find and secure the eternal destiny that awaits you with our LORD and King and Savior Jesus Christ.
cimaroon...I do believe with all of my heart that you are among the few who are faithful seekers of Christ Jesus...and I do believe that you will come into the knowledge of the truth in Him...and receive eternal life with Him. I mean that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry ...may He see a pure, sincere heart within you of seeking His truth before it is too late for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cimaroon
This is based on your assumption that He is not making me seek him.
...I DO know that He IS making you seek Him cimaroon......proof ? This conversation between you and I.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cimaroon
I spend every day reading Scriptures, sometimes from morning till night but I would not dare accuse you of not reading it because you do not share my belief in what I have read. Only God gives understanding and if he has given it to you, I know he will give me also, and if he has not given it to you, I know one day he will. I also will not assume that I read it more than you do, considering that you do not know me nor I you; only God would know who reads more.
After reading all that you have on your heart this morning...I DO believe that you read His word...seeking His truth...you DO have a heart for God cimaroon...and I love that about you. I bet you and I both read Scripture...one as much as the other...the only difference is this: I read it with understanding...and I am serving the LORD by allowing Him to reach you through me by the Spirit, to plant the seeds of truth into your heart...so you will know. He obviously sees your heart for Him...and wants for you to know the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry He died for all of us because we could not do it for ourselves.... all of us...just some of us accepted His precious gift...and some have not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cimaroon
I have accepted his precious gift only thing is I believe his gift is way greater than you give him credit for. He gave me my acceptance as well, when He himself planted my belief in my heart. See I believe he gives us the faith also. For all things come from God, and this is not my own words; it is God’s word.
...and He is giving you truth today cimaroon...to see if you will have the faith to believe it. Will you? I believe you will...and I believe that God believes that too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry I can simply and forthrightly say to you, you are wrong and you do not understand the truth of God's written word. His truth has been veiled from your understanding because of your unbelief....because you do not keep His commandments...all Ten of them...this makes you a willfull sinner..therefore God is not your Father. The father of lies is your father.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cimaroon
You said this to me, but you could not deal with it when it was said to you.
You are right....when this was first said to me 3 years ago, at first, I could not hardly deal with it...but once it enterd into my heart...and I let go of my pride, thinking I already knew what His truth was (when I truly didn't), God pearced my heart through with His beautiful truth...and I have not been the same since...all confusion is gone...I KNOW that I KNOW that I KNOW, that I stand in HIS truth...and I am assured that I will be able to stand with my head up...my eyes latched onto His (if I can stand at all without my knees buckling under me) before Him...knowing that He knows me and knowing that He knows that I know and love Him...that I lived in His will while I was living on this earth....blessed assurance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chwitzy I think someday you’ll see your evil teachings and realize they’re from your father, the devil, and God will forgive you and rescue you.[/quote]
I think you will see this for yourself Chwitzy...I pray to God...that you will be rescued. Sincerely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cimaroon
So Verna, Do you see the difference between you and Chwitzy: His belief had compassion on you for even though he said you will see your evil teachings and realize they’re from your father the devil he also said “God will forgive you and rescue you”. Isn't that mercy, compassion, and love?
Not really cimaroon...Chwitzy is deceived...and instead of stepping back as you did...and sincerely attempting to grasp at something you know not about...he/she instead calls my heavenly Father the devil, and His teachings and His word evil teachings. That's alright though...as I know where I stand...and WHO I stand for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry ....I am not going to debate, nor am I going to argue with you. You are a willfull sinner....living in unbelief...I have given you truth...and you need to stop waiting on Jesus Christ to do something for you againthat He has already finished...when you have yet to receive His gift....you have placed His gift to you up on a shelf...unopened....it takes a whole lot more than lip service....it takes works...good works...obedience to His commandments...and until you understand that...well...all I can say is that I feel very sorry for you until you do. Ever read in Scripture that faith without works is dead ? It is true. God said it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cimaroon
I cannot say I have faith and not wait patiently on him to give me everything I need to please him. I will listen to him, I will wait patiently on the Lord, and He will set my feet upon Christ and establish my ways. I will trust in him and not turn to anyone who tells me otherwise. God has promised that when I trust in him I will not be disappointed. I will wait, for I trust him.
This is all we can hope for cimaroon...God bless you in your journey closer to Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cimaroon
I am living exactly how he will have me live…We all are.
So Verna, I am convinced that your words are from the flesh (yourself) and not from God, for if your words were guided by the Holy Spirit you would have know better, than to make such condemning statements and foolish accusations, not knowing a thing about me, my lifestyle or the passion I have for God’s word....
...But let us put those things aside, for I don’t want anyone to give me credit. Everything I do that’s good, God gets the credit, for it isn’t me, but God doing the work in me. Only He is good. If I must boast, I would rather boast about the things that show how weak I am. I am a sinner, and a child of the devil for I am born of the flesh and this body of flesh has not yet died. But while I was a sinner God sent his son to take my sins upon himself and He paid the price to set me free. He did this for everyone; won’t he freely give us EVERYTHING else including our belief in him, and the confession of our mouths?
I am his and as the scripture say: If Christ is for me who can be against me. I am convinced that nothing can separate me from his love. Not even you!
I have never needed to tell anyone about the things I do, but for the first time I felt I had to show you how wrong you are in your assumptions of me. Could you not be wrong in your assumptions of God’s word also? You’ve told me that I should pray for him to take away my unbelief but he has said his grace is sufficient for that cause; in my weakness his strength is manifest.
God's Richest Blessings on you always!
...and to you cimaroon...God Bless you mightily....always.
Love in Christ Jesus,
Verna.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 06-21-2012 at 07:23 AM..
Verna, I really wanted to take some time and think this through before answering your post to me because I truly don’t want to offend you, you are after all my sister in Christ. But I have to say, you seem truly self righteous. I don't think you are seeing what you are doing and how you put others down and trample the belief that God has given them. I have said nothing condemning to you through this entire conversation and you need to hear your tone, it is so un-Christ like. Where is your love and compassion? You claim that you keep all ten commandments, I don't see how, for Galatians 5:14 said For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself....and love does no wrong to his neighbor.
I have shared my belief with you concerning my faith in Christ; for I have told you that I believe in Christ, and I trust in God's promise. I believe he is the way, the truth and the life, and no one goes to the Father but by him. I believe that one must believe in order to be saved, but I also believe that God will save us all because he will give us our faith as well. He will make us believe. For not only is salvation a gift, but our faith is a gift as well. Instead of embracing me as a fellow sister in Christ you have instead condemned someone he has died for.
I guess everyone needs some self examination and testing of faith ever now and then just to make sure that what they do is what Jesus wants them to do. Jesus spoke very clearly against judging others and tearing others down as opposed to buiding them up.
"For to be carnally minded is death;" Romans 8:6 KJV
This devastating doctrine of "The saved (but still carnal) Christian" has been firmly established in our churches because the meaning of the word believe is not always clear. The only true definition of what it means to "believe" is the scriptural one found in John 3:36 (see above).
Examine it carefully and you will see that ONLY THOSE WHO OBEY TRULY BELIEVE.
THE PROOF! (John 3:36)
IF: One who believes in the Son has eternal life,
AND: One who does not obey shall not see life,
THEN: The one who does not obey, does not believe.
To be carnally minded is death but lucky for us death is the end of sin (Romans 6:7)
IF: One who believes in the Son has eternal life,
AND: One who does not obey shall not see life,
I did a post on this very same thing in another thread and I would love it if you would read it. It was the thread by sunnysmyler why did God say Rebekah had two nations within her womb. Its on the very first page. I am asking you to please read it! She asked a very interesting question and in answering it God really showed me some insight.
Verna, you make a good case. I'm not fully convinced though because of some other passages in Scripture. I won't get into Galatians or Romans since its that's been discussed. But what do you say about Philippians 6:1
6*For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
If by faith in Christ, Ive received the Spirit, then God has begun a good work in me. Will God not perfect it? How are you saying that someone who is righteous can turn from God willfully? Answer based on what Phillipians 6:1 says. Not your previous arguments. Tell me what ^^^^ verse means then.
A command isnt the same thing as a requirement. I'm commanded to love my wife like Christ loved the church. But do I perfectly do that? No, nobody does. Does that mean I don't love my wife deeply and desire to lead her well and "try" to love her like Christ loved the church? Absolutely not. God is pleased that I try to love my wife the best I can. God DOESN'T condemn me if I fail every now and then. God looks at my heart.
God requires us to have faith(true faith) in Christ as Lord and Savior......to inherit the Kingdom. He commands us to obey His commands. If anyone loves Christ, they will try to obey his commands out of love(not fear of hell). But they aren't condemned when they fail. Just the fact that they TRY to obey with all thier heart....shows that they have the Spirit within them. Nobody of this world that isn't saved truly cares about pleasing/obeying the Lord out of love for Him.
The heavy yoke is the perfection you expect from people to be saved. Living a life with caution and worry that the second I willfully sin.....I'm gonna go to hell, is a heavy yoke! Christ HAD to die to save us from that b/c nobody can keep from sinning perfectly. Therefore there is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord. Our perfection is no longer required. We can have peace and rest knowing its been paid for......which results in a life of love and gratitude and desire to please God with our lives.
You are exactly right when you have the faith to believe you ARE reconciled to God there is peace and rest, and from this place of peace and rest you have confidence to approach God boldly to expect Him to meet you in your walk in the Way of Life.
Please do not be deceived or intimidated by those who talk of obedience as if it is anything, or something more than by faith walking in love towards your neighbor and loving them as yourself, thus fulfilling the whole law
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
-For everyone that keeps quoting John 14 " if you love me you will keep my commandments...keep reading the chapter into chapter 15 in which he says what his commandments are
John 15
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
1 John 3:22-23
22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
- So as we can see if we are obeying Christ and following his commandments , you can clearly see what his commandments are above, to Love One another, Believe in him, and Love thy neighbor as thyself and also to Love God (Matthew 22: 36-40, Mark 12:29-32)
-As humans we are sinful by nature, but should not be living a sinful lifestyle...ie repeatability committing the same sin over and over vs sinning and recognizing it and turning away from it. And anyone on this forum that says they dont sin or feel they can live the rest of there life without a sin is a liar. Just read Romans 13:1-7 and see what the Bible says about obeying the law of the land and i know we all break those laws at some point and time, which is sin. So while it is great to try to live a sin free life and ask for forgiveness when we stumble at times, dont be boastful to say you dont sin at all.
The argument isn't if we sin or not. Everyone in here admits to sinning. But some(not me) claim they never willfully sin. They only sin unintentionally. They claim that anyone who willfully sins after they've been born again.....won't be forgiven.
To be carnally minded is death but lucky for us death is the end of sin (Romans 6:7)
Absolute sanctification and LIVING a holy life is the inseparable fruit and companion of justification; for, wherever Jesus Christ is made of God unto any soul righteousness, he is made of God unto that soul sanctification. 1 Co. 1:30 states, "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
...and THIS ^^^ is what Romans 6:7 truly means cimaroon. Again...respectfully...you do not understand the passages in Scripture that you quote. Truth has been blinded from you because of your unbelief in obeying the Ten Commandments of God. My heart felt advice to you would be to be still...faithfully...quietly seek His truth and stop quoting Scripture to prove something you do not understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cimaroon
IF: One who believes in the Son has eternal life,
AND: One who does not obey shall not see life,
I did a post on this very same thing in another thread and I would love it if you would read it. It was the thread by sunnysmyler why did God say Rebekah had two nations within her womb. Its on the very first page. I am asking you to please read it! She asked a very interesting question and in answering it God really showed me some insight.
Rev. 2:7 ...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev. 2:11 ...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev. 2:17 ...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev. 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev. 3:2 ...I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev. 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev. 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev. 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev. 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev. 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God,...and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10...the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev. 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her
Rev. 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Rev. 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great *****, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev.20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev. 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
...to God be all the glory...honor...and praise.....may His WORD be TRUE and every man a liar. Amen.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 06-21-2012 at 09:58 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
