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Old 06-13-2012, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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Getting back to the original topic about the historical accuracy, inspiration, and inerrancy of scripture, I believe it was Eusebius who tried to use John the Baptist's imprisonment as a time marker.

John the Baptist was a real historical person and his existence and execution appears elsewhere than only in the scripture.

So, just when was John the Baptist imprisoned and executed?

Luke 3:18-22 seems to have John imprisioned before Jesus' baptism.


"18So, with many other exhortations, he proclaimed the good news to the people. 19But Herod the ruler,* who had been rebuked by him because of Herodias, his brother’s wife, and because of all the evil things that Herod had done, 20added to them all by shutting up John in prison.

21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my Son, the Beloved;* with you I am well pleased." (NRSV)

Let's look further.

One biblical "fact" stands out. John was alive to rebuke Herod for his conduct with Herodias.

 
Old 06-13-2012, 08:28 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,233,302 times
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ancient warrior,
Do you believe it is even remotely possible that the Bible could record more than one Herod in the New Testament?

Herodius married Herod Antipas the tetrarch. She was the one that danced for Herod Antipas. It was Herod Antipas that had John put in prison.

This Herod who imprisoned John was not the same Herod who died about 30 years prior. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist when He was 30 years old. This Herod was the son of Herod the Great. Herod the Great died around 4 B.C.

Why do you make us have to search these things out when you could do it just as easily? You are wasting our time!
 
Old 06-13-2012, 09:10 AM
 
32,826 posts, read 8,177,641 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
That riiiiight!

Two of the accounts (Matthew and Mark) are the same account.

In Matthew 26, two days before the Passover, at the house of Simon the leper, the disciples grumbled at the waste.

In Mark 14:3 two days before the Passover, at the house of Simon the leper, some grumbled.

In John's account, six days before the Passover, at the home of Lazarus, Mary poured attar on Christ. At this home Judas was present and he grumbled at the supposed waste.

In Luke, at Capernaum, near the beginning of Jesus' ministry at the Pharisees house, the Pharisee grumbled that a sinner woman was doing this.
I've been following this with interest.

Let me just clarify, Eusebius, since you generally tend towards the idea that discrepancies are not contradictions but different events and the omission of one event by others is not a contradiction but just the others omitting that event for one reason or another -

Do you maintain that the anointing at Luke 7.37 is not the anointing at Bethany removed and re- written, but a different event, given that the Bethany anointing is totally absent in Luke where it should appear between ch 20 and 22? Or do you accept that the internal evidence suggests that Luke has shifted the Bethany anointing to Galilee and attempted to disguise it?
 
Old 06-13-2012, 10:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I've been following this with interest.

Let me just clarify, Eusebius, since you generally tend towards the idea that discrepancies are not contradictions but different events and the omission of one event by others is not a contradiction but just the others omitting that event for one reason or another -

Do you maintain that the anointing at Luke 7.37 is not the anointing at Bethany removed and re- written, but a different event, given that the Bethany anointing is totally absent in Luke where it should appear between ch 20 and 22?
The anointing in Luke 7:37 took place in Caparnum.

The anointing in the other accounts took place in Bethany; at Simon the leper and at Lazarus' home years later, separated by about four days.

I would put the Bethany anointing right around Luke 22:1.

Quote:
Or do you accept that the internal evidence suggests that Luke has shifted the Bethany anointing to Galilee and attempted to disguise it?
There is no "internal evidence" to suggest any such thing. Only a wild imagination.
 
Old 06-13-2012, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,899,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
Getting back to the original topic about the historical accuracy, inspiration, and inerrancy of scripture, I believe it was Eusebius who tried to use John the Baptist's imprisonment as a time marker.

John the Baptist was a real historical person and his existence and execution appears elsewhere than only in the scripture.

So, just when was John the Baptist imprisoned and executed?

Luke 3:18-22 seems to have John imprisioned before Jesus' baptism.


"18So, with many other exhortations, he proclaimed the good news to the people. 19But Herod the ruler,* who had been rebuked by him because of Herodias, his brother’s wife, and because of all the evil things that Herod had done, 20added to them all by shutting up John in prison.

21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my Son, the Beloved;* with you I am well pleased." (NRSV)

Let's look further.

One biblical "fact" stands out. John was alive to rebuke Herod for his conduct with Herodias.
RESPONSE:

Observe "Herod the ruler, who had been rebuked by him because of Herodias, his brother’s wife"

I'm identifying the correct Herod - Herod Antipas who inherited the rule of Galilee following his father, King Herod the Great's, death about 4. BC.

It was Herod Antipas who put John the Baptist to death, but this seems to have occurred in the 35 -37 AD time frame, long after Jesus was dead no matter which contradictory version of scripture one is using.

Shall we examine the historical evidence on this point which shows no matter wich Gospel account you are following, it's incorrect.

Also, John the Baptist's followers, never became Christians. They rejected Jesus as the messiah, and founded their own Church which continues to this day.
 
Old 06-13-2012, 11:48 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,233,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Observe "Herod the ruler, who had been rebuked by him because of Herodias, his brother’s wife"

I'm identifying the correct Herod - Herod Antipas who inherited the rule of Galilee following his father, King Herod the Great's, death about 4. BC.

It was Herod Antipas who put John the Baptist to death, but this seems to have occurred in the 35 -37 AD time frame, long after Jesus was dead no matter which contradictory version of scripture one is using.

Shall we examine the historical evidence on this point which shows no matter wich Gospel account you are following, it's incorrect.

Also, John the Baptist's followers, never became Christians. They rejected Jesus as the messiah, and founded their own Church which continues to this day.
"According to this passage, the execution of John was blamed for a defeat Herod suffered c. AD 36." John the Baptist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some say he (Herod) lived to 39 A.D.

Some say John was beheaded around August A.D. 30.
Some say he was beheaded around A.D. 36.

Whatever the case, John was beheaded during the ministry of Jesus.

Here is a timeline of Jesus' ministry. At the top of the page you will note John was beheaded between the Fall of 29 A.D. and the Spring of 30 A.D.
Ministry of Jesus Timeline

I'm not saying the timeline above is perfect.

What is factual is that while Jesus was still living, Herod had John put to death.
 
Old 06-13-2012, 12:57 PM
 
5,494 posts, read 4,321,318 times
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If I may make an analogy to the three different anointings:

This would be as if there was one accident involving one person who then went to court. Four witnesses were then brought in to give testimony in favor of the defendant. Three testimonies then do not line-up. As such the jury then concludes that the defendant was actually in three different accidents.
 
Old 06-13-2012, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,899,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
"According to this passage, the execution of John was blamed for a defeat Herod suffered c. AD 36." John the Baptist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some say he (Herod) lived to 39 A.D.

Some say John was beheaded around August A.D. 30.
Some say he was beheaded around A.D. 36.

Whatever the case, John was beheaded during the ministry of Jesus.

Here is a timeline of Jesus' ministry. At the top of the page you will note John was beheaded between the Fall of 29 A.D. and the Spring of 30 A.D.
Ministry of Jesus Timeline

I'm not saying the timeline above is perfect.

What is factual is that while Jesus was still living, Herod had John put to death.
RESPONSE:

>>Some say he was beheaded around A.D. 36.

>>Whatever the case, John was beheaded during the ministry of Jesus....
What is factual is that while Jesus was still living, Herod had John put to death.<<

Questions:

(1)Was Jesus still alive in 36 A.D.?

(2) John was supposed to have been beheaded for condemning the marriage of Herod Antipas and Herodius. When were they married?
 
Old 06-13-2012, 02:41 PM
 
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Reputation: 989
Of course Jesus was alive in 36 A.D. He's been alive for almost 2000 years now.

History is sketchy as to when they were actually married. What we know for sure is John beheaded while Jesus was alive.
 
Old 06-13-2012, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,899,714 times
Reputation: 254
Matthew 3:16-17 "And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, the Beloved,* with whom I am well pleased.’

But,

Matthew 11:2-3 "When John heard in prison what the Messiah* was doing, he sent word by his* disciples and said to him, ‘Are you the one who is to come, or are we to wait for another?’"

RESPONSE:
Did John simply forget? Or are these verses in essense contradictory?
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