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You're obviously speaking of Isaiah chapter 14. Unfortunately, this is another false doctrine that has enjoyed widespread acceptance because of tradition, or shall I say, a traditional mistake.
JESUS said of Satan:
"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him." (John 8:44,45)
According to Jesus, Satan was a murderer from THE BEGINNING, not an angel.
"Lucifer," instead of being the name of an angel who became the Devil, was THE NAME THAT WAS GIVEN TO THE MORNING STAR. Lucifer, the light-bringer, is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word PHOSPHOROS, which is used as a title for Christ in II Peter 1:19. Jesus called Himself the PHOSPHOROS or the LUCIFER in Revelation 22:16, saying, "I AM... the BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR." In the messages of Christ to the seven churches in the book of Revelation a great reward was given to him that overcometh in the church at Thyatira: "And he that overcometh... 'I will give him THE MORNING STAR" (Revelation 2:26, 28).
Show me in God's Word where Lucifer (the Morning Star) is associated with Satan.... ANYWHERE! Before you critique what I'm saying, show me where it is written that The Morning Star (Lucifer) has any association whatsoever with Satan. You can't, because it is not written anywhere in the Bible. It is yet another unbiblical tradition of men that is just assumed to be Biblical, but is found nowhere in the Word of God.
The "fall" spoken of in Isaiah 14 is "THE FALL OF MAN!" Adam, in the image and likeness of God before the fall, was himself a MORNING STAR; a LUCIFER! Isaiah 14 describes the fall of man from his exalted position in God. He fell from the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth (driven from the Garden of Eden) into the earth realm (carnal, flesh) filled with sin and death.
You said that Satan chose to disobey God and was banned from Heaven. Where is that written in God's Word? It isn't. But isn't it interesting that your description of what happened to Satan is actually the very description of what happened to Adam... that he chose to disobey God and was banned from Heaven (Garden of Eden)?
And you also said Satan wanted to be God. On the contrary, it was Satan who tempted Eve with the words; "Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
Very good logic there...Most people are taught interpretations that are not biblical and when one attempts to show logic...They have been so conditioned to what they have been told that they cannot bear with sound logic and continue to read what they have been taught into the Scriptures that they read...Neither do they desire to find the Truth because they are comfortable and happy where they are at...It is like John 3:16 that everyone quotes and have been taught to read as everyone can get saved if they come to Yeshua...Pointing out the word "whomever" to imply that Salvation is open to all...However, when you stack it up against the Scriptures that use the words such as, "Predestined", "Elected", "Chosen", "Selected"...And the fact that Scripture states that the names of the Elect were written down in the Book from foundation of the world...So, if all those that are to be saved have their names already written down in the Lamb's Book, then the word "Whomever" must logically imply, not generalization, but be indicative of the individual that believes, who's name had already been written in the Lamb's Book of Life...An indicative pronoun...Such as "He that believes"...As no one can confess Yeshua as Lord without the Holy Ghost...Each one of the words quoted above have meaning and purpose within the text in order to imply what is meant...They have specific meanings:
Predestinated/Pre-Ordained means that something has been decreed or ordained or destined before-hand to transpire.
Elected means that someone has been lefted un-elected...Or why even use the word at all if it has no significance in the text?
Chosen means that someone has been left un-chosen...Or why use the term?
Selected means someone has been left un-selected...Or why use the term at all...
There is also illogic in the interpretation of the Rich Man and Lazarus as implying that the Believer goes to Paradise and the Non-believer goes to Hades...This is not the case for it is a parable, a metaphor for a deeper spiritual Truth...And one must use logic and reason to glean the Truths from this Parable...One must use the OT to understand the Parables, Spiritual Truths of the NT...
Let me tell the audience a little bit about Mr. C.I. Scofield. This is the infamous Scofield of eternal damnation theology:
and the Rapture and Tribulation farce:
and "apollumi"
Strong, the most respected Greek Biblical scholar of the KJB defines the word thus:
to destroy
to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to, ruin
render useless
to kill
to declare that one must be put to death
but Strong does admit that it is often used metaphorically:
(metaphor): to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
And it is this metaphor that Mike is using for his "authority' that apollumi means to torment in hell and not to utterly destroy. Notice that Strong never once mentions "lake of fire". That is added by Mike in an attempt to bolster his theology.
As I said. Mystery solved.
Attempting to discredit an idea by attacking and discrediting the person doesn't speak well of those who resort to doing so. Regardless of his personal life, and although he was not a language scholar, C. I. Scofield was a genius in his summary of doctrine.
You're also extremely ignorant of what the Bible says concerning the rapture and the Tribulation.
As for the word Apollumi, one only needs to do a study on how it is used in the Bible. It does not refer to a cessation of existence. It refers to a person or a thing being ruined, no longer being useful, or of being lost.
Predestination/Pre-Ordained means that something has been decreed or ordained or destined before-hand to transpire.
Elected means that someone has been lefted un-elected...Or why even use the word at all if it has no significance in the text?
Chosen means that someone has been left un-chosen...Or why use the term?
Selected means someone has been left un-selected...Or why use the term at all...
There is also illogic in the interpretation of the Rich Man and Lazarus as implying that the Believer goes to Paradise and the Non-believer goes to Hades...This is not the case for it is a parable, a metaphor for a deeper spiritual Truth...And one must use logic and reason to glean the Truths from this Parable...One must use the OT to understand the Parables, Spiritual Truths of the NT...
No human reason can combine the two opposite parallel truths. The attempt to do so has lead Calvinism and synergism.
There were two originators of the "logic and reason to glean the Truths" over predestination (chosen \ selected), Calvin and Arminius. Scriptural teach is the road that is taught. Calvinism and Arminians are the ditches along side the road.
Calvin reasoned if some are chosen, then some has been left "un-chosen".
Calvinism is incorrect. Followers of Calvin may cast about looking for assurance that God has indeed picked them for heaven and not for hell.
Arminius (rejecting Calvin's reason) went to the other side of the road.
His logic and reason concluded that Calvin's double predestination was a terrible thing to say.
They believe it's up to us to "make a decision" whether we should believe or not. They deny what scriptures says about the results of original sin.
Arminius taught that we are born neutral or perhaps basically good. Ultimately faith is turned into a man's work resulting in boasting in 'their" decision was correct and sincere enough or else may doubt whether they really believed or believed enough to get into heaven.
Luther's opinion of those who are troubled by election \ predestination:
" You are at times tempted with thoughts about the eternal predestination of God...Now it is true that this is a bad temptation. However, to combat it we should know that we are forbidden to understand this matter or to concern ourselves with it. For we should be glad not to know what God wants to keep secret; for this is the apple, the eating of the forbidden fruit of which brought death to Adam and Eve with all their children to know something they were not supposed to know."
We should be content with two | | unexplainable \ non-understandable things of God rather than X them together with reason and logic.
Last edited by twin.spin; 06-25-2012 at 12:14 PM..
Reason: spelling
Interesting question... Maybe there more that one part to Heaven... Then again God is Omnipresent and Omnipotent maybe that has something to do with it. I am don't have scripture to say for sure I am just thinking out loud I suppose
Attempting to discredit an idea by attacking and discrediting the person doesn't speak well of those who resort to doing so. Regardless of his personal life, and although he was not a language scholar, C. I. Scofield was a genius in his summary of doctrine.
You're also extremely ignorant of what the Bible says concerning the rapture and the Tribulation.
As for the word Apollumi, one only needs to do a study on how it is used in the Bible. It does not refer to a cessation of existence. It refers to a person or a thing being ruined, no longer being useful, or of being lost.
There is absolutely NOWHERE in the Bible where it says "rapture" or " "The" Great Tribulation". It's all fable and conjecture build by the Fundamentalist Corporate Machine's minions like Lindsey, LaHayne, and other establishment figures to propagate the illusion, and to line their pockets and the pockets of the Machine's seminaries with cold hard cash to further the myth. As for heretics like Scofield, God doesn't call crooks and liars to translate His Word. But the devil does.
I've shown you in plain English what Strong says about apollumi Only metaphorically does it pertain to torment in hell. Otherwise, it plainly states the literal meaning is to "utterly destroy and bring to nothingness". No matter how much you try to wish it into a different meaning to further your ET heresy the meaning will not change. But keep wishing.
There is absolutely NOWHERE in the Bible where it says "rapture" or " "The" Great Tribulation". It's all fable and conjecture build by the Fundamentalist Corporate Machine's minions like Lindsey, LaHayne, and other establishment figures to propagate the illusion, and to line their pockets and the pockets of the Machine's seminaries with cold hard cash to further the myth. As for heretics like Scofield, God doesn't call crooks and liars to translate His Word. But the devil does.
I've shown you in plain English what Strong says about apollumi Only metaphorically does it pertain to torment in hell. Otherwise, it plainly states the literal meaning is to "utterly destroy and bring to nothingness". No matter how much you try to wish it into a different meaning to further your ET heresy the meaning will not change. But keep wishing.
Actually thrillobyte.. it does, but not how Lindsey, LaHayne, and others swerve it into what scriptures doesn't teach.
Where in the Bible:
"rapture" ... caughtup (NIV & KJV) 1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caughtup together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV)
The" Great Tribulation" Matthew 24:21 (KJV)
For then shall be greattribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Revelation 7:14 (NIV & KJV)
I answered, “Sir, you know.†And he said, “These are they who have come out of the greattribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (KJV)
Actually thrillobyte.. it does, but not how Lindsey, LaHayne, and others swerve it into what scriptures doesn't teach.
Very true.
It is true the word "rapture" is not in the Bible, but there is a "gathering back to Christ," which is what the word rapture infers. However, the popular "Left Behind" trilogy is a cinematic comic strip, and is incorrect in every and all ways possible. In fact, even if one intended to write and direct a purely fictional Sci-Fi movie, it would be closer to the truth than Left Behind (and Hal Lindsey, Baptist, etc). Who Framed Roger Rabbit is closer to the truth than the traditional Lindsey view that is held by today's churches.
P.S. - Whenever someone mentions Hal Lindsey, my mind always conjures up Barney Miller before I remember (i.e. - Hal Linden)
There is absolutely NOWHERE in the Bible where it says "rapture" or " "The" Great Tribulation". It's all fable and conjecture build by the Fundamentalist Corporate Machine's minions like Lindsey, LaHayne, and other establishment figures to propagate the illusion, and to line their pockets and the pockets of the Machine's seminaries with cold hard cash to further the myth. As for heretics like Scofield, God doesn't call crooks and liars to translate His Word. But the devil does.
I've shown you in plain English what Strong says about apollumi Only metaphorically does it pertain to torment in hell. Otherwise, it plainly states the literal meaning is to "utterly destroy and bring to nothingness". No matter how much you try to wish it into a different meaning to further your ET heresy the meaning will not change. But keep wishing.
You continue to use the tired old excuses of those who attempt to refute the rapture of the Church. The raptured church can be seen in heaven during the Tribulation by going to Rev 19:7-8. You have an obsession with attempting to discredit the pre-tribulational rapture as the invention of money hungry people with an agenda. The rapture is Biblically revealed truth whether you like it or not. And it is obvious that you don't even try to be objective about it.
Again, Scofield was a genius in the field of doctrinal summation. The majority of his notes are accurate. The Scofield Bible makes a good study Bible. Also, Lewis Sperry Chafer who founded and was the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary, as well as a professor of Theology, was a student of C. I. Scofield. God did indeed use C. I. Scofield despite your prejudiced views.
Neither of these is the topic of the thread, and I am not going to indulge your prejudices.
And again, a simple study of the various passages in the Bible in which the word Apollumi is used shows how it is used. It does not refer to cessation of existence. It is used for example of a lost coin which is then found. It is used for an old wine skin which is ruined and no longer useful. But it continues to exist. Those are just two examples of how it is used.
Apollumi (destroy) refers to utter devastation. But as the noted Greek scholar W. E. Vine explains, “The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being†(An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words [Westwood, N.J.: Revel, 1940]). The term is often used in the New Testament to indicate eternal damnation (see, e.g., Mt 10:28; Lk 13:3; Jn 3:16; Ro. 2:12), which applies to unbelievers. But even with that meaning the word does not connote extinction, as annihilationists claim, but rather spiritual calamity that will continue forever. (MacArthur, J: Romans 9-16. Chicago: Moody Press or Logos)
Apollumi (destroy) refers to utter devastation. But as the noted Greek scholar W. E. Vine explains, “The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being” (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words [Westwood, N.J.: Revel, 1940]). The term is often used in the New Testament to indicate eternal damnation (see, e.g., Mt 10:28; Lk 13:3; Jn 3:16; Ro. 2:12), which applies to unbelievers. But even with that meaning the word does not connote extinction, as annihilationists claim, but rather spiritual calamity that will continue forever. (MacArthur, J: Romans 9-16. Chicago: Moody Press or Logos)
Apollumi (destroy) refers to utter devastation. But................ but NOTHING! It doesn't matter who explains anything! When Jesus says Apollumi in Matthew 10:28, that's what He means...... no BUTS, IFS, or ANDS! The fact is; The Word says, "The wages of sin is DEATH" (Romans 6:23). Those who want so badly eternal torment to be true (because they're sick) will openly admit that verse of Scripture to be true, and then abruptly contradict themselves by insisting that the wages of sin is ETERNAL TORMENT! Hey, sadistic nutjob; news flash! IF ETERNAL TORMENT WERE THE PENALTY FOR SIN, THEN JESUS NEVER ATONED FOR SIN. HE DID NOT SUFFER ETERNAL TORMENT. AND IF THAT IS THE PRICE THAT GOD DEMANDS AS PUNISHMENT FOR SIN, THEN JESUS PAID NOTHING AT ALL. If my punishment were eternal torment, and Jesus took my place, receiving the full judgment for my sin, then it should be clear to any thinking person that He would have had to suffer eternally in hell. That is the only way the debt could be paid! DUH!!!
Apollumi (destroy) refers to utter devastation. But................ but NOTHING! It doesn't matter who explains anything! When Jesus says Apollumi in Matthew 10:28, that's what He means...... no BUTS, IFS, or ANDS! The fact is; The Word says, "The wages of sin is DEATH" (Romans 6:23). Those who want so badly eternal torment to be true (because they're sick) will openly admit that verse of Scripture to be true, and then abruptly contradict themselves by insisting that the wages of sin is ETERNAL TORMENT! Hey, sadistic nutjob; news flash! IF ETERNAL TORMENT WERE THE PENALTY FOR SIN, THEN JESUS NEVER ATONED FOR SIN. HE DID NOT SUFFER ETERNAL TORMENT. AND IF THAT IS THE PRICE THAT GOD DEMANDS AS PUNISHMENT FOR SIN, THEN JESUS PAID NOTHING AT ALL. If my punishment were eternal torment, and Jesus took my place, receiving the full judgment for my sin, then it should be clear to any thinking person that He would have had to suffer eternally in hell. That is the only way the debt could be paid! DUH!!!
This comment of yours, 'Those who want so badly eternal torment to be true (because they're sick)', reveals a lack of objectivity on your part and a hostile bias against those who teach Biblical truth. And I already addressed in post #11 of the following thread >> WOW-this guy gets it. Hell doesn't exist but..... your false understanding that for eternal torment to be true Jesus would have had to spend eternity in hell in order to pay the penalty for sin (which is spiritual death and finally the second death). It is fairly certain that you will not listen. But for those who have ears to hear, I just recently posted elsewhere on this forum that the Bible speaks of at least 7 categories of death. They are as follows:
1.) Spiritual death: Separation from God during this life. (Rom 5:12; 6:23)
2.) Physical death: Separation of the soul from the body. (2 Cor 5:8)
3.) Temporal or Carnal death: The believer out of fellowship and under the control of his old sin nature. When under Carnal death the believer can only produce human good and cannot produce any works of eternal value. His works under Temporal or Carnal death are 'wood, hay, and stubble', and will be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ, though he himself will be saved. Both 1 Cor 3:12-15 and 2 Cor 5:10 speak of this. In 1 Cor 3:12-15 Paul was referring to leaders in the church. In 2 Cor 5:10 he was referring to all believers. (Rom 8:6; Eph 5:14; 1 Tim 5:6)
4.) Positional death: The believers identification with Jesus Christ in His death on the cross and burial. It is also known as retroactive positional truth. (Rom 6:5-8)
5.) The second death or eternal death: This is the unbelievers spiritual death perpetuated throughout all eternity future in the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15)
6.) Operational death: This is an extended period of Carnal death over weeks, months, or years. In Operational death the believer is in a backslidden or reversionistic condition. The believer in Operational death has not lost his salvation but their spiritual life is useless. And again, the only works they can produce are human good and will be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ. (James 2:26; Rev 3:1)
7.) Sexual death: The inability to procreate. (Rom 4:17-21; Heb 11:12)
The penalty of sin is spiritual death. All the other categories of death originated as a result of spiritual death. The second death as mentioned above is the perpetuation of spiritual death into the eternal future in the lake of fire. Having failed to trust in Christ for eternal life, the unbeliever's spiritual death will continue forever as the second death in the lake of fire.
Apollumi refers to ruination and uselessness, as well as to being lost. It does not have the connotation of ceasing to exist.
Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).
Both the beast and the false prophet will have been in the lake of fire for 1000 years before Satan, the other fallen angels, and unbelieving humanity join them there. And even after 1000 years, it is said that they will be tormented forever (Rev 19:20, 20:10).
The New Testament Greek Lexicon defines Apollumi as follows:
Definition
to destroy
to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
render useless
to kill
to declare that one must be put to death
metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
to destroy
to lose
Matthew 10:6 but rather go to the lost (apollumi) sheep of the house of Israel. The lost sheep of the house of Israel were not in a state of non-existence, but they were spiritually dead.
Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost (apollumi).
In the two examples above, those who were lost - apollumi, were those who were spiritually dead - separated from God in time.
By extension, anyone who dies physically without having believed in Christ for eternal life, remains lost - apollumi, and will be physically resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2). The second death in the lake of fire is the unbelievers spiritual death perpetuated forever.
Matthew 9:17 "Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined (apollumi); but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved."
Rev 18:14 "The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away (apollumi) from you and men will no longer find them.
Regardless of your feelings and objections, Greek scholar W. E. Vine, as well as others have said apollumi when used of the unbeliever in the lake of fire has the meaning not of cessation of existence, but of eternal ruin and uselessness. (post #68)
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