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Old 06-13-2012, 05:31 PM
 
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How is the most evil, sinful creature in creation allowed into the presence of a pure and Holy God (Book of Job) while man is not?

Also, why is the devil and hell never mentioned in the old Testament. And please don't say "It is" and throw "sheol" into the mix. Sheol simply means grave where you toss a dead body. The ancient Jews did not believe in the concept of hell and still don't.
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Old 06-13-2012, 06:29 PM
 
Location: NC
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How did satan get in? Good question. God bless and peace.
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
How is the most evil, sinful creature in creation allowed into the presence of a pure and Holy God (Book of Job) while man is not?

Also, why is the devil and hell never mentioned in the old Testament. And please don't say "It is" and throw "sheol" into the mix. Sheol simply means grave where you toss a dead body. The ancient Jews did not believe in the concept of hell and still don't.
Your question is a flawed question since it assumes Satan is evil. The idea of an evil satan (and hell) is a later man-made Chrstian "invention," I assume to spark the interest of 2nd and 3rd century Pagans.

The bible presents no concept of satan being an evil creature. Quite the opposite is true, in that HaSatan is an angle of Hashem, who works lock step in agreement with Hashem's wishes. He's really quite the agreeable and loyal servant of Hashem.

Just try to ignore the Chrstian bibles which seek to confuse you on the matter. If you truly want to understand HaSatan, then the only place you'll find accurate info on the subject is in the Torah.
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
How is the most evil, sinful creature in creation allowed into the presence of a pure and Holy God (Book of Job) while man is not?
Satan is only allowed into heaven on a periodic basis. He does not dwell there. From time to time there are angelic convocations in which the angels present themselves before the Lord as in Job 1:6 and 2:1. Satan is allowed into heaven at such times.

There will come a time, at the midpoint of the Tribulation when Satan and his angels will be permanently kicked out of heaven and not allowed entrance as seen in Rev 12:7-9.

No one, man or angel will be allowed into the presence of God forever. The wicked dead will all be in the presence of God (Jesus Christ) as they are judged and then sent to the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15). The fallen angels also await their judgment (Jude 6).

Quote:
Also, why is the devil and hell never mentioned in the old Testament. And please don't say "It is" and throw "sheol" into the mix. Sheol simply means grave where you toss a dead body.
He is mentioned in the Old Testament. Satan is the devil. I just gave two passages above where Satan is mentioned.

Sheol is not the grave. I will simply point you to what C. I. Scofield said concerning Sheol/Hades.

Luke - Chapter 16 - Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition) on StudyLight.org

As for the lake of fire (hell), it is symbolized by the words 'Tophet' and 'Gehenna.' (See further down concerning the belief of Judaism concerning Gehenna.)

Excerpt:
The future destruction of the wicked is symbolized by the Valley of Hinnom to which Gehenna refers. It is a place south of Jerusalem where the bodies of dead animals and rubbish were taken to be burned. The Valley of Hinnom was also the site of much human sacrifice to the pagan god Molech (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6, Jeremiah 32:35). The fire burned constantly in the valley since additional fuel was frequently being cast into it.


"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place" (Jeremiah 7:31-32). Here we see that in the Valley of Hinnom is a place called "Tophet" whose name means "place of fire".

"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it" (Isaiah 30:33).
Hell Part 2: The Differences between Hades and the Lake of Fire


Quote:
The ancient Jews did not believe in the concept of hell and still don't.
To the contrary.

In ancient Judaism the belief was that the wicked dead went to Gehenna for a period of 12 months after which they would then go to Gan Eden. However, the very wicked might remain in Gehenna or be annhilated.

For the views of rabbis' and Judaism concerning Olam Haba, Gan Eden (heaven) and Gehenna, refer to these links.

Excerpt:
In terms of size, some rabbinic texts say that Gehenna is limitless in size, while others maintain that it has fixed dimensions but can expand depending on how many souls occupy it (Taanit 10a; Pesikta Rabbati 41:3). Gehenna is usually located beneath the earth and a number of texts say that the unrighteous "go down to Gehenna" (Rosh HaShanah 16b; M. Avot 5:22).
Jewish Views of the Afterlife - The Afterlife in Judaism


Excerpt:
"R. Abba bar Kahna taught: Sheol [i.e. Gehenna] has two gates, an inner and an outer. Whenever a man's life is taken without God's permission [as by suicide or murder], his soul must finish out in the outer regions of Sheol the remainder of the years he was to live. That Sheol has more than one gate is intimated in the verse: 'I said: In the noontide of my days I shall go, even to the gates of Sheol' [Isaiah 38:10]. (Pesikta Rabbati 24:1)
Descriptions of Gehenna - Jewish Views of the Afterlife


Excerpt:
Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She'ol or by other names. According to one mystical view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created. Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba.

Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of this period; their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.
Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife


But that's Judaism. In the New Testament it is made clear that those who go to Gehenna - the lake of fire go there forever (Rev 20:10-15)

2 Thess 1:6-9 may be immediately referring to the 'Torments' side of Hades, but then again, when Christ returns both the false prophet and the antichrist will be thrown directly into the lake of fire (Rev 19:20).

In Daniel 12:2 (Old Testament) a distinction is made between those who will be resurrected to eternal life and those who will be resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt (which of course will be in the lake of fire).
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Satan is only allowed into heaven on a periodic basis. He does not dwell there. From time to time there are angelic convocations in which the angels present themselves before the Lord as in Job 1:6 and 2:1. Satan is allowed into heaven at such times.

There will come a time, at the midpoint of the Tribulation when Satan and his angels will be permanently kicked out of heaven and not allowed entrance as seen in Rev 12:7-9.

No one, man or angel will be allowed into the presence of God forever. The wicked dead will all be in the presence of God (Jesus Christ) as they are judged and then sent to the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15). The fallen angels also await their judgment (Jude 6).



He is mentioned in the Old Testament. Satan is the devil. I just gave two passages above where Satan is mentioned.
Satan was or still is allowed into heaven through the authority of God our Father under the guard of the archangels which were under the protection of the Holy Spirit.

As per a place called or named Hell, this is a man made or generated name. Satan is bound from the heavens, but has free roam here on earth and in its atmosphere. We do not have the authority to rebuke or bind him from this world, but only from the soul & spirit of man in the mighty name of HaMashiach Yeshua. We can rebuke and bind them from Holy ground of a true believer. This would a sanctuary of the faithful (home...etc.) through the sanctification, consecration or setting-apart, and dedicating it to use under God our Father in the mighty name of HaMashiach Yeshua through the Holy Spirit.
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiliPepper1 View Post
Satan was or still is allowed into heaven through the authority of God our Father under the guard of the archangels which were under the protection of the Holy Spirit.

As per a place called or named Hell, this is a man made or generated name. Satan is bound from the heavens, but has free roam here on earth and in its atmosphere. We do not have the authority to rebuke or bind him from this world, but only from the soul & spirit of man in the mighty name of HaMashiach Yeshua. We can rebuke and bind them from Holy ground of a true believer. This would a sanctuary of the faithful (home...etc.) through the sanctification, consecration or setting-apart, and dedicating it to use under God our Father in the mighty name of HaMashiach Yeshua through the Holy Spirit.
As I said, Satan is allowed into heaven at times.

The place which is often referred to as 'hell' is real and is called in Scripture 'Gehenna', 'the lake of fire' and other descriptive terms.

I mentioned nothing about rebuking or binding Satan. The Christian is never said to take the offensive against Satan, but to be on the defensive.

The New Testament Scriptures are clear on the reality of the lake of fire and that it will be the permanent abode of the unbeliever. To deny its existence is to ignore the plain revelation of Scripture.
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Old 06-13-2012, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
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Sigh. It has been said before. It will be said again.

Sheol is NOT "hell". Dont believe me? Ask your local rabbi. The KJV contains some 50 references to "hell". The KJV revised contains only 30 or so references to hell. Which one is right? Which one is wrong?

There have been two 20th century translations of the Hebrew canon by Jewish scholars, BOTH of which do not contain the word "hell". Time for modern Christians to stop asserting that the Jews dont know anything about the Old Testament.

Satan is "the adversary". Adversary to God, adversary to Messiah. When Jesus says to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" He is NOT saying that Peter is evil. He is saying that Peter by his words, is opposing the purpose of Messiah, and therefore is acting as The Adversary.

Those who claim that there is "hell" in the Old Testament are wrong. Those who claim the Satan of the Old Testament is the modern devil are wrong.

PERIOD!
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Old 06-13-2012, 09:11 PM
 
Location: NC
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I believe that God has a purpose for satan in His creation as well as a purpose for evil in the creation. If He did not, they would not be here. God bless and peace.
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Old 06-13-2012, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong
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When true choices are in front of entities with free will. They will divide. The nature of the entities and the degree of free will given will define where does the division shall occur.

Angels are born to serve God, they are born to know God. The degree of their free will is not as full as humans. That's why their division is allowed to occurred to heaven.

Man on the other hand are granted with full blown free will, and their main role is not designed as a servant of God. Their division is supposed to happen in a neutral ground like earth, where the influence of God and that of Satan co-exist, you need to be sided to one of them during your life span in this 'neutral ground'.

Satan is an angel. One of his characteristic is that he'd like to complain a lot, he's an accuser, and will be an accuser on the Judgment Day. God sometimes may choose to listen to what he said. God doesn't need him to be present in heaven to listen to what he'd like to say. He doesn't need his presence in heaven in order to drop him a message or two. He doesn't even need his presence in heaven to allow a message to be conveyed in front of a group of angels. But basically, I don't think that God is still keeping a constant communication with him.

Satan is some where in Hades, after being driven out of heaven, he's in a space where he can have a period of time to cast influence to this world either directly or indirectly through his horde of fallen angels and evil spirits.


The word 'Hades' is a Greek translation of Sheol. The word 'hell' is a translation from either German or English (feel free to correct me). It is a word to describe a tormenting place such as a burning hell. However, in certain translation, it is also used interchangeably to Hades (a Greek concept) or Sheol (a Hebrew concept).

Last edited by Hawkins; 06-13-2012 at 09:30 PM..
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Old 06-13-2012, 09:15 PM
 
Location: southern california
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just like us, he made some angels and he made some men, not all of the models turned out well, there were a few recalls.
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