Why is the memory of God's people so short? (doctrine, allegory, believer)

[jghorton]

Originally Posted by Mike555

To strengthen the believer God often tests and puts us through a furnace of fire. He brings us to the end of our resources to break us from our self-reliance so that we come to realize that our only true security is Him. But human nature being what it is, when people are put to the test their faith often wavers. When in unpleasant circumstances it is easy to recall more pleasant times even if we must filter out the things that weren't so pleasant. When the Israelites were put through 'no water tests' in the desert they recalled the leeks and pomegranates of Egypt while forgetting the pain of the task masters lash, and they ''meribahed'' against Moses, blaming him for their troubles.

Many people lack the spirit or attitude to be willing to endure the testing and so they fail to grow stronger in their walk with God. Even a spiritual giant can give in to tiredness as Elijah did. Elijah was a spiritually mature believer and had just led a spectacular revival in Israel (1 Kings 18). But through queen Jezabel, Satan mounted a counter attack. Jezabel attempted to eliminate Elijah without making a martyr out of him. So she sent a messenger with a threat (1 Kings 19:2). Elijah should have trusted the Lord, but on this occasion his faith faltered and he ran and sat under a Juniper tree. And being tired he began to feel sorry for himself. He even asked God to take his life (1 Kings 19:4). A believer is most prone to suffering a spiritual defeat after having had a spiritual victory.

And how much more so will the average believer give in to despair when put to the test. It requires positive volition and the proper attitude to endure and grow. One must be willing to persevere when under pressure, and one must have the attitude of desiring to continually feed on the word of God which fuels his spiritual advance. The believer never stands still in his spiritual life. He is either advancing or he is retreating. Qui Non Proficit Deficit: He who does not advance goes backwards. Each believer must live his own spiritual life. And each believer must motivate himself and develop a sense of urgency to take in the word of God and apply it to his life.

In the Exodus generation, outside of Moses, only Joshua and Caleb were of another spirit. And out of the original generation only Joshua and Caleb went into the land. Everyone else died, and it was their children who went into the land. Most believers today, had they been in the Exodus generation, would have died in the desert.

Excellent Mike, -- I knew you would come through! --- But, why do you suppose so many are so unwilling to persevere, endure ... and thus, ultimately grow? I wonder if the "positive attitude and proper volition" you refer to ... doesn't sometimes give way to 'sound byte theology' (?) --- In this respect, it seems like there is a great deal of 'feel good' theology at work (almost like 'prosperity teaching', that incorrectly promises a victorious, trouble-free life to all believers, with no perseverance of effort (?).

Somehow, if the 'body' is to every grow beyond a 'milk diet' of childish thinking, we've got to learn to persevere and stop thinking like children. Some do and others do not; ... I guess that's the mystery I'm wondering about.

You may be right about many believers today 'dying in the desert' ... whereas Joshua and Caleb trusted in the Lord, not themselves -- and entered the land. But, do you think there is actually an application beyond that (eg; 'wheat and tares'), where there are many 'professing believers' who have given their 'religion' to the Lord, but, many fewer 'true believers' who have given Him their heart?

[jghorton]

Originally Posted by garya123

Yes there is. Pray without ceasing Paul said. Whatever the form those prayers take wither they be formal or just off the cuff everyday in your own words prayers, they are powerful even though for the moment they seem not to be because but as it is written, "He is able to do exceedingly above all that we ask or think." and "You have not because you ask not." Which one of you can maintain an earthly freindship without communications with that freind and so likewise how can you maintain freindship with God if you do not communicate with Him and then overtime to understand more fully His will and obtain the great treasures of Heaven; Faith, Hope ,and Love of a Devine quality.

Prayer is the opening up of the heart to God even when we do not know how to pray but by opening up you give Him room for His Spirit to pray for you in ways too wonderful to express in words. It is written, "I will pray in the Spirit and I will pray with the understanding also. Share your troubles and joys with God and learn to give thanks for what He has done already.

Prayer is very simple as it is the heart expressing your need of Him in the circumstances you find yourself in now. Are you lonely ask for His freindship. Are you troubled then ask for peace and wisdom to handle you problems. Have you sinned then ask for forgiveness and move on. Lack of communication and asking that Gods will be done in your life and when you find it and don't obey His will are the main causes of backsliding.The will of God in general terms is all of the above even as Jesus said. Give thanks, ask, and pray that Gods will be done for you as a unique individual because no one else knows you better that God. So then it boils down to Grace is given for those who ask for the will of God. Grace is what keeps a person on track and His will prevents the harding of heart that the disciples experianced before they where born again.

Gary, there is more real power operating on this thread (and less detractors, thus far) than many I've seen. I believe you are absolutely right about prayer, but, think that our prayer-life needs to progress beyond "my name is Jimmy; Gimme, Gimme, Gimme.' The true heart of prayer that draws His people closer is PRAISE and THANKSGIVING. One reminds us of who God is and the other ... what God has done for us.

I think we are getting near to the 'End Time' and should, as mature believers, feel a growing sense of urgency for the lost; along with the Spiritually immature in the 'body.' It's time to 'put away childish things and walk as men (and women) of God!'

God's Grace is indeed marvelous ... but, there is a great need in the church today, to move beyond the confused belief that all perceived 'blessings' are a result of God's grace. Sometimes, God will deliver us from trials, but, more often, He walks through them with us!

[theflipflop]

Religion is like excercise. Just because you have a heart attack doesn't mean you're 100% guranteed to start an excercise program when you come home from the hospital.

G-d describes the Jews in the Torah as a "stiff-necked people." I should know, as I'm one of them. These people literally heard G-d's voice at Mount Sinai. They saw His hand in the splitting of the Yam Suf and the drowning of the Mitzrim (Egyptians). These people saw the realization of a promise made to their forefather, Avram Avinu (Abraham), that G-d would deliver this nation from bondage in Egypt, and take with them all the land's wealth. I assure you a year before the exodus, not one living Jew could explain how this was possible, and yet it happened anyways.

So your question is a good one - with all of this said, how in the world could they still complain? It's clearly a statement that mankind is meant to constantly work on improving their personal middos (character traits). And that one who believes they now know and no longer needs to learn, is a fool. One can walk up a level at the mall on the "down" escalater by exerting more effort than the down escalater. But as soon as one stops walking and stands still, the escalater will take them straight to the bottom. The lesson is that anything is possbile if you give your effort. Short of that, you're just a complainer with no merit for Hashem's protection.

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by jghorton

Excellent Mike, -- I knew you would come through! --- But, why do you suppose so many are so unwilling to persevere, endure ... and thus, ultimately grow? I wonder if the "positive attitude and proper volition" you refer to ... doesn't sometimes give way to 'sound byte theology' (?) --- In this respect, it seems like there is a great deal of 'feel good' theology at work (almost like 'prosperity teaching', that incorrectly promises a victorious, trouble-free life to all believers, with no perseverance of effort (?).

Somehow, if the 'body' is to every grow beyond a 'milk diet' of childish thinking, we've got to learn to persevere and stop thinking like children. Some do and others do not; ... I guess that's the mystery I'm wondering about.

You may be right about many believers today 'dying in the desert' ... whereas Joshua and Caleb trusted in the Lord, not themselves -- and entered the land. But, do you think there is actually an application beyond that (eg; 'wheat and tares'), where there are many 'professing believers' who have given their 'religion' to the Lord, but, many fewer 'true believers' who have given Him their heart?

Why does one person persevere while another gives up? That question is applicable to both the spiritual life and life in general.

Well, you know, the unbeliever has it relatively easy in this world. He is a part of this world and a part of Satan's cosmic system. As long as he remains an unbeliever he is on the sidelines of the angelic conflict. He doesn't become a witness against Satan so long as he remains unsaved. But the believer on the other hand becomes a problem for Satan if he advances far enough in his spiritual life and God calls him as a witness to testify against Satan as God did with Job for instance. So Satan attacks the believer by whatever means in order to keep him off balance.

And Satan's inside agent is the old sin nature which we all retain until the moment of physical death. Because of the old sin nature the believer is in a constant state of struggle between divine viewpoint and human viewpoint. The greater the amount of Bible doctrine a believer possesses, the greater his capacity to think in terms of divine viewpoint and be free from cosmic thinking. But the more a believer advances, the greater the pressure that Satan applies in an attempt to distract or disorient the believer. Many believers don't see the importance of learning God's word and they never advance spiritually and they remain neutralized in the spiritual life

Satan being a creature can only be in one place at a time, and so he personally attacks very few people. But he has a huge army of fallen angels who carry out his schemes, and his cosmic system reaches into every area of human endeavor.

But why will one believer give in to the pressures that are brought to bear against him by the world, the flesh, and the devil, and remain off balance and a loser in the spiritual combat while another believer will persevere and advance to the highground of spiritual maturity? Why does one believer use his volition to advance in God's plan for his life while another believer goes on negative signals and remains a loser.

What is it within the innermost essence of a person that causes one person to react or respond one way while another reacts or responds in a different way? Take two brothers from a broken home, raised in the worst of circumstances and environment. One brother becomes a criminal while the other brother rises above his circumstances and becomes an outstanding person.

Well, it's a matter of character and values. And of mental attitude. You are what you think. And whether it is in the spiritual realm or in life in general some people have the determination and drive to succeed while others don't. Regardless of whatever the circumstances and outside influences, a person is ultimately responsible for what he thinks and does. Some people never even mature as a person in a general sense. It can be easier to give up and say 'what's the use', then to persist toward a goal. And some people just don't care.

There are certainly many professing believers who are not saved. There are also many believers who you would never know were believers by the way they live, but they are truly saved. And there are spiritually advancing believers. You can't really tell by the way a person lives whether or not they are a believer. You don't know what may have happened in their life which caused their faith to be shipwrecked and which perhaps resulted in them having great anger toward God and a rejection of Christianity. The best people in the world are Christians and the worst people in the world are Christians. Unbelievers fall somewhere in between. A reversionistic or backslidden believer is saved, but having been under prolonged control of his sin nature due to neglect of his spiritual life he can adopt a lifestyle that would fool you completely.

Solomon had at one point been a spiritually mature believer, but he was influenced by his many wives and concubines which resulted in his turning away from God and living as an unbeliever would, 'under the sun.' He never lost his eternal salvation as such a thing is impossible. But he experimented with trying to find happiness in the usual human ways... intellectual academic pursuits, pleasure, success, wealth, sex, philosophy. Solomon finally recovered but many believers do not.

Lets consider a person, let's say an alcoholic. He hates his life and he hates himself. But in a sober moment he hears the gospel. And understanding it he places his faith in Christ. Then he gets drunk again and when he sobers up a day or so later he gets to thinking about it and decides that it is nonsense and that he was taken in. He decides that he no longer believes in Christ. Was he saved in the first place? Well anyone who says 'no', doesn't understand grace, or justification, or positional sanctification. Eternal life is given in the moment a person puts his trust in Christ. Once he has been saved he is eternally saved. God Himself cannot reverse it


Then there is the legalistic 'believer.' Some people never actually trusted in Christ alone for eternal life but added something to that faith. Some kind of works. Faith plus whatever it is they think they must do in order to be saved. These people are actually trusting in their own righteousness instead of Christ, and with all their effort in trying to impress God, they are going to wind up in the lake of fire forever. They never learned to distinquish between what is required for eternal life - faith alone in Christ alone, and what is necessary for the spiritual life after having been saved. Therefore they are working for their salvation and remain under condemnation. Receiving the gift of eternal life is a matter of non-meritorious faith. It is the advancement to spiritual maturity which requires effort. The two must be kept separate.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Mike555

W
Solomon had at one point been a spiritually mature believer, but he was influenced by his many wives and concubines which resulted in his turning away from God and living as an unbeliever would, 'under the sun.' He never lost his eternal salvation as such a thing is impossible. But he experimented with trying to find happiness in the usual human ways... intellectual academic pursuits, pleasure, success, wealth, sex, philosophy. Solomon finally recovered but many believers do not..

Based on what .....
I know ... "fall from your secure postion" ... can't be what it means

I know .... "but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." can't possibly mean what it appears to be saying

I know .... "the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away." ...

• A person who never really was a believer receives God's Word with joy ... (I see it here all the time)
• and a person who never really was a believer quickly falls away
  • I still am trying to figure out how an unbeliever falls away from something he never was

Sorry Mike, I just can't see how OSAS is not considered an insider agent doctrine of Satan.

[Jerwade]

Why is the memory of God's people so short?

"For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me.
They have removed their heart far from me; and their fear toward me is taught by the precepts of men."

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

Promises made in stormy seas, are quickly forgotten in calm waters.

Nice quote!

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Based on what .....
I know ... "fall from your secure postion" ... can't be what it means

I know .... "but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." can't possibly mean what it appears to be saying

I know .... "the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away." ...

• A person who never really was a believer receives God's Word with joy ... (I see it here all the time)
• and a person who never really was a believer quickly falls away
  • I still am trying to figure out how an unbeliever falls away from something he never was

Sorry Mike, I just can't see how OSAS is not considered an insider agent doctrine of Satan.

Twin, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on whether the believer can lose his salvation. But I will briefly address the verses you listed.

2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

This passage in the context of 2 Peter is with regard to the fact that Peter, knowing he is about to depart from this life is stirring up his readers with regard to what he had previously taught them, so that they would remember those things. Peter wants to make sure that they don't fall from their firm position in their knowledge of the things that had been taught them. It has nothing whatever to do with salvation.


Matt 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

The context of this verse is the Tribulation. It is with reference to the fact that Tribulational believers who physically survive to the end of the Tribulation will go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. This verse is about temporal salvation, not eternal salvation. The earth's population will be decimated during the Tribulation. The Millennial kingdom will start out with believers only. As time goes on and people are born, there will be unbelievers. But at the beginning, among mortal man, only believers who survive to the end of the Tribulation will go into the Millennial kingdom. Of course, both the resurrected church having been resurrected at the rapture of the church prior to the Tribulation, and Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs who will be resurrected at the Second Advent of Christ will also be in the Millennial kingdom. The Millennium will have both mortal man and resurrected humanity living together. Again, eternal salvation is not in view in this verse.

Matt 13:18 "Hear then the parable of the sower. 19] "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20] "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21] yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22] "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23] "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

You singled out verse 20. In the parable of the sower the only verse which represents the unbeliever is verse 19. In verses 20, 21, and 22, believers are in view. They are saved but when put under pressure and because of the cares of this world they don't make any spiritual progress and are unfruitful. In verse 23 the faithful and productive believer is in view.

Twin, you need to decide whether you believe that salvation is by grace through faith as Ephesians 2:8-9 says, or whether you have to do something meritorious in order to maintain your salvation. Both grace and faith are set in opposition to works. Notice the following two verses and see how both faith and grace are in contradistinction to works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

What about the faithless believer?

2 Tim 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

11] It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12] If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13] If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

This passage is about suffering for eternal glorification. It is about eternal reward. If we endure we will also reign with Him. In the parable of the minas in Luke 19 Jesus tells of the faithful servant who will be rewarded with ruling over ten cities, and of the faithful servant who will be rewarded with ruling over five cities. Notice the difference in reward. One will rule over ten cities while the other will rule over five cities. And this is based on their productivity and how faithful they had been in carrying out their responsibilities. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. He will not deny us eternal salvation. He will deny us reward. 2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. In 1 Cor 3:9-15 Paul had talked about teachers of the gospel and how their works would be judged. But in 2 Cor 5:10 Paul includes every believer as appearing before the judgment seat of Christ for the evaluation of their works for reward.

If we (believers) are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. There's the believer's eternal security. The believer may be faithless in carrying out the responsibilities inherent to his spiritual life, he may even shipwreck his faith. But Jesus Christ remains faithful. The believer will be saved even though he is denied rewards. 1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

As I said, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on the believers eternal security. I have simply answered your post to me and hopefully we can leave it at this.

[VelcroQueen]

When i was younger, I had a few times when I got so comfortable with life and myself that I could have convinced myself that i was a pretty good person. Like i had saved myself. It didn't take long for me to get knocked off my own pedistal. Sometimes only moments.

[VelcroQueen]

Keith Green - So You Wanna Go Back To Egypt (live) - YouTube

[hljc]

From 1 Corinthians 13: 5.....``Love does not behave itself seemly, seeking not her own, is not easily provoked, thinking no evil ``.....Seem believers come up short when they spend their walk with Jesus in love resisting thinking no evil ... Then when you add that they may not listen and remember, which come from lack of trust and getting to involved.... Along with resisting the world and its ways ..... Believers have a mixed bag of ideas which can get them to ignore the unpleasant way and look to desired ideas and live them only....