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Old 06-18-2012, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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To what degree is a Christian supposed to believe that Jesus was fully human during his manifestation on Earth?

What I wonder is this....was Jesus subject to death by disease or misadventure during his formative years, before launching his career as a preacher? If so, then is it only by good fortune that he survived to start and finish his ministry? Might the will of the Father been frustrated and the life of Jesus cut short before the purpose was completed?

If not....if there was no chance of Jesus perishing prematurely, then can we claim that he was fully human? If he had no fear of a premature death, then he would not have bene going through life with the same mentality as we who are subject to such misfortune, he would not really be experiencing life as the rest of us must.

So, was Jesus a human or a superhuman?
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Old 06-18-2012, 02:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
To what degree is a Christian supposed to believe that Jesus was fully human during his manifestation on Earth?

What I wonder is this....was Jesus subject to death by disease or misadventure during his formative years, before launching his career as a preacher? If so, then is it only by good fortune that he survived to start and finish his ministry? Might the will of the Father been frustrated and the life of Jesus cut short before the purpose was completed?

If not....if there was no chance of Jesus perishing prematurely, then can we claim that he was fully human? If he had no fear of a premature death, then he would not have bene going through life with the same mentality as we who are subject to such misfortune, he would not really be experiencing life as the rest of us must.

So, was Jesus a human or a superhuman?
If Jesus was subject to the same dying condition we, of Adam's progeny, experience then He would be a sinner for Romans 5:12 says we sin because we are dying.

Jesus gave His soul to save us. He laid down His life.

He could have whipped the greatest armies of His day with a single word if He wanted to.
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Old 06-18-2012, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
37,051 posts, read 17,459,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
If Jesus was subject to the same dying condition we, of Adam's progeny, experience then He would be a sinner for Romans 5:12 says we sin because we are dying.

Jesus gave His soul to save us. He laid down His life.

He could have whipped the greatest armies of His day with a single word if He wanted to.
You have a contradiction here. Your final sentence suggests an all powerful Jesus, not human, not subject to the limitations of humanity.

If that is the case, then Jesus did not actually have a human life to lay down for us, as your second sentence indicates.

If your final sentence is true, then for all we really know, there was no actual suffering involved in the death on the cross, for Jesus, with unlimited power, could make the pain vanish while still appearing to suffer.
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Old 06-18-2012, 02:46 PM
 
6,824 posts, read 4,872,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
To what degree is a Christian supposed to believe that Jesus was fully human during his manifestation on Earth?

What I wonder is this....was Jesus subject to death by disease or misadventure during his formative years, before launching his career as a preacher? If so, then is it only by good fortune that he survived to start and finish his ministry? Might the will of the Father been frustrated and the life of Jesus cut short before the purpose was completed?

If not....if there was no chance of Jesus perishing prematurely, then can we claim that he was fully human? If he had no fear of a premature death, then he would not have bene going through life with the same mentality as we who are subject to such misfortune, he would not really be experiencing life as the rest of us must.

So, was Jesus a human or a superhuman?
Jesus was fully man as you or I but was not born with Adam's genetic sinful defect via virgin Birth conceived of the Holy Spirit. It says he thirsted. So without water he would have died. If he didn't have water he would have, but the Father would not allow that to happen.

Is God powerful enough to make sure his Son fulfills his ministry? There were many incidents in which the Jews attempted to kill the Lord Jesus. Divine intervention? I do believe. The Lord uses us to accomplish his goal.

We are talking about the Almighty God.

Jesus was fully Man and fully God in undivided union with the Father and Holy Ghost. We cannot comprehend the three in one Godhead as we cannot fathom unity of one within three different "persons".

Jesus fully died on that cross and was fully resurrected demonstrating his power over death.
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Old 06-18-2012, 03:02 PM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,658,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
To what degree is a Christian supposed to believe that Jesus was fully human during his manifestation on Earth?

What I wonder is this....was Jesus subject to death by disease or misadventure during his formative years, before launching his career as a preacher? If so, then is it only by good fortune that he survived to start and finish his ministry? Might the will of the Father been frustrated and the life of Jesus cut short before the purpose was completed?

If not....if there was no chance of Jesus perishing prematurely, then can we claim that he was fully human? If he had no fear of a premature death, then he would not have bene going through life with the same mentality as we who are subject to such misfortune, he would not really be experiencing life as the rest of us must.

So, was Jesus a human or a superhuman?
As God Jesus Christ has always existed. Since the time of His incarnation Jesus Christ in His humanity was and is also fully human though He is now in resurrection body.

As a man Jesus Christ had a body which was humanly perfect. Since His body was free from the contamination of the old sin nature He was undoubtedly the healthiest person who ever lived. Nevertheless He could still become tired and hungry. Potentially He could have caught a cold, but whether He ever did, I don't know. But because He came into the world for the purpose of going to the cross there was no chance of Him dying in an accident or by any other means. I mean that while His body was mortal even though perfect, He was protected. Herod tried to kill Him as a baby but Joseph was warned in a dream to flee with Jesus to Egypt. There is no such thing as luck. Jesus Christ came into the world to do the Father's will and God protected Him so that He could go to the cross.

But no one can die until God allows it to happen. Once any person is born, that person is protected from death until God writes off on it. God determined in eternity past how you and I will die. No one can remove another person from this life until God permits it to happen by whatever means that death is to occur. Nor will any fatal accident or disease remove someone from this life until it is his time to be removed. A person can however take his own life in violation of God's plan for his life. A person can superimpose his own volition over God's will and intended plan and purpose for his life. But even then, God knew from eternity past everyone who in human history would take their own life and He put their decision to commit suicide into the divine degrees thus permitting it to happen.

Jesus Christ was protected from any and all Satanic attempts to remove Him from this world so that He could make His way to the cross for the purpose of dying for the sins of the world.
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
37,051 posts, read 17,459,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
Jesus was fully man as you or I but was not born with Adam's genetic sinful defect via virgin Birth conceived of the Holy Spirit. It says he thirsted. So without water he would have died. If he didn't have water he would have, but the Father would not allow that to happen.

Is God powerful enough to make sure his Son fulfills his ministry? There were many incidents in which the Jews attempted to kill the Lord Jesus. Divine intervention? I do believe. The Lord uses us to accomplish his goal.

We are talking about the Almighty God.

Jesus was fully Man and fully God in undivided union with the Father and Holy Ghost. We cannot comprehend the three in one Godhead as we cannot fathom unity of one within three different "persons".

Jesus fully died on that cross and was fully resurrected demonstrating his power over death.
You have also provided a contradiction. On the one hand you have Jesus subject to thirst and death by dehydration, on the other you have divine intervention warding off dangers from enemies.

Are you arguing that the father would have let Jesus die of thirst, but not be murdered prematurely?

I do not see the sense to that.
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
37,051 posts, read 17,459,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As God Jesus Christ has always existed. Since the time of His incarnation Jesus Christ in His humanity was and is also fully human though He is now in resurrection body.

As a man Jesus Christ had a body which was humanly perfect. Since His body was free from the contamination of the old sin nature He was undoubtedly the healthiest person who ever lived. Nevertheless He could still become tired and hungry. Potentially He could have caught a cold, but whether He ever did, I don't know. But because He came into the world for the purpose of going to the cross there was no chance of Him dying in an accident or by any other means. I mean that while His body was mortal even though perfect, He was protected. Herod tried to kill Him as a baby but Joseph was warned in a dream to flee with Jesus to Egypt. There is no such thing as luck. Jesus Christ came into the world to do the Father's will and God protected Him so that He could go to the cross.

But no one can die until God allows it to happen. Once any person is born, that person is protected from death until God writes off on it. God determined in eternity past how you and I will die. No one can remove another person from this life until God permits it to happen by whatever means that death is to occur. Nor will any fatal accident or disease remove someone from this life until it is his time to be removed. A person can however take his own life in violation of God's plan for his life. A person can superimpose his own volition over God's will and intended plan and purpose for his life. But even then, God knew from eternity past everyone who in human history would take their own life and He put their decision to commit suicide into the divine degrees thus permitting it to happen.

Jesus Christ was protected from any and all Satanic attempts to remove Him from this world so that He could make His way to the cross for the purpose of dying for the sins of the world.
Your position then is a general denial of free will, you have God controlling all and all that happens is at God's caprice.

That makes all of us automations, automations do not need faith of any kind since all is predetermined regardless of what behavior we choose...or think we are choosing.
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Old 06-18-2012, 05:37 PM
 
20,304 posts, read 15,658,083 times
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Your position then is a general denial of free will, you have God controlling all and all that happens is at God's caprice.

That makes all of us automations, automations do not need faith of any kind since all is predetermined regardless of what behavior we choose...or think we are choosing.
To the contrary. Did I not say clearly that a person can superimpose their volition over God's sovereign plan for their life. A person can kill themself even though it is not God's desire for them to do so though is certain cases God may indeed step in to prevent it. A person can refuse to believe in Christ for eternal life even though God desires that all men be saved. The decrees of God do not forbid human volition, but rather guarantees that the volitional choices of man will certainly come to pass. The decisions of man may not always have the intended result, but the decision is certainly free to be made. But man's volition is not absolute.

A person may desire to commit murder. If it is God's will for the intended victim to be taken out of this world through murder then he will be. But if God's plan for the intended victim is to continue to live then the plan of the would be murderer will not succeed. But God did not prevent the would be murderer's desire to commit murder from occurring.

The sovereignty of God and the volition of man co-exist in human history. But God does control human history even while allowing human volition to function.

In eternity past God knew the volitional choices of everyone who would ever live. Knowing how each person would use his volition God decreed that the volitional decision would certainly be made. God makes man's volition possible. But the results of man's volition may not always have the intended result. As an extreme example, God will never allow human volition to destroy the human race. God will steer events to prevent that from happening.

Relating this to Jesus Christ, the Jews tried to stone Him, but God did not allow it to happen. Nevertheless, God did not prevent them from having the desire to stone Jesus. Indeed, God in eternity past knew that they would try to kill Him and decreed that the desire would take place thereby enabling the desire to take place. But God did not make them have the desire. And He did not allow their desire to kill Him to be carried out. There are times that God overules man's volition.

What I'm saying is that while God gave man volition, God must enable that volition to function. Everything which becomes reality must be decreed in order for it to come to pass. The decrees of God do not cause man to make certain choices, but rather guarantee the certainty of man's volitional choices. But again, those choices may not necessarily have the intended effects. God's plan advances while permitting human volition to operate.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
37,051 posts, read 17,459,158 times
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Mike...

You have so much figured out about the motivations and nature of the diety....so naturally I am left wondering where you got all this information and how you are certain it is reliable. It looks to me like you are just asserting things you invented.I could provide my list of the same, and if it was different from yours, by what means could anyone determine which of us was correct, or even if either of was correct?
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Mike...

You have so much figured out about the motivations and nature of the diety....so naturally I am left wondering where you got all this information and how you are certain it is reliable. It looks to me like you are just asserting things you invented.I could provide my list of the same, and if it was different from yours, by what means could anyone determine which of us was correct, or even if either of was correct?
Everything he is saying is biblical. He just hasn't spent the time digging out the verses for bible study.

Sounds like a good study for you to get into if you are truly interested in learning Christology.
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