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Old 06-24-2012, 12:13 AM
 
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Default If We Say We Have No Sin What Did John Mean?

Many quote this scripture in opposition to the teaching that a born again believer is able to live without sin:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
John 1:8

Standing alone and out of context it looks to be true. However lets look at the wider context and we will see a different meaning.

1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. John 1:5-8

The problem comes because most do not percieve that verse 8 is referring back to verse 6. John was addressing a specific problem among believers. That some were claiming they were having fellowship (being in touch with God) with God yet they were walking in darkness.

They were commiting some sin yet they thought they were still in fellowship with the Lord. This was the lie. When one is stuck in a sin and refuses to admit it they lie to themselves and become convinced they are still in fellowship with Jesus.

Verse 7 is telling them (or us as it may be) that if we will come back into the light the blood of Jesus will cleanse them from all sin.

Verse 8 then returns to the same point as verse 6.

That being, if one trys to cover their sin and does not admit their true condition they are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them.

Verse 9 tells how to break the deception and be cleansed of the sin. Instead of saying "I am not in sin" or "I have no sin" we are to confess the sin and be forgiven by Christ.

Verse 10 is further admonition to confess and agree with God that sin has affected the relationship between God and the offender. If confession and repentance does not happen the person is disagreeing with God. In his deception he thinks God is still blessing him and showing him favor. In effect he is calling God a liar.

So please understand. When John says "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" it was not written to say the average believer could never be without sin.

Obviously this would be a contradiction to other statements by the same apostle in the same book!

For instance:

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
John 2:1

Here John plainy tells believers to sin not. It would certainly be confusing if the same apostle who tells people to "sin not" would tell the same people that if they said they had no sin they were liars and the truth was not in them as if it could not be done!

He simply adds that IF not even when but IF you sin you can be forgiven by God through Jesus Christ.

Again a few verses later the matter of who it is that is deceived comes again into focus.

2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Here John says if we say we know him and do NOT keep his commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us!

So IN CONTEXT we can see this is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE message that many are getting out of the apostles writing. Most today think if you say you are not commiting sin YOU are the liar.

Johns real meaning was that those who say they are in fellowship with God and are not keeping his commands (commiting sin) are those who are liars and deceived!

Here are a few more examples from other apostles that if John were telling Christians they were deceived if they thought they were living without sin would be contradictions.

Apostle Paul:

15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

He tells the saints to sin not. He says the exact thing John said in 1 John 2:1

Apostle Peter:

2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 2 Peter 2:14

Peter mentions those who cannot cease from sin in quite a negative light! If he reproves souls who cannot stop sinning he must have believed they COULD STOP SINNING!

So friend it seems all the apostles taught we could walk without sin.
One more example from Johns writings:

2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 2:5-6

So in conclusion when John says "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" he is focusing on those WHO ACTUALLY DO have sin in their lives and instead of confessing it are holding on to it.

THEY my friends are the ones who his admonition is meant for. He was not trying to say that obedient saints who were actually keeping the Lords word were deceived for doing what he himself had told them to do.

It was simply showing that we are to confess if indeed we have sinned instead of trying to cover our sins. That would only lead to deception.

Hope this helps! Peace, Mike
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:20 AM
 
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See the world is a dark place , where believers are save through the righteousness of Jesus Christ and not of our own righteousness ........The kingdom of darkness of this world will go against the will of and put sin of man , and build iniquity, and establish transgressions of constant sin, were people under curses of sin are under the control of this dark force........ Where When Jesus saves a person who must prove to Jesus they are receptive to repent and are trying to resist sin and trying to Love the Lord Jesus .....So Jesus takes a believer out of the kingdom of darkness and puts them into the Kingdom of God , and though Jesus cleansing of darkness by Jesus Blood prayers which all and all blessing from Heaven come ..... Jesus manages to cleans the believer who must stay in prayer and keep out of curses from this world and keep sin and the sin of illness and discord out of their lives as they endure to the end to be saved....... Where no one completely overcomes the world , but many believers can keep most away with only a margin of sin , which will have to be manageable to the believer with the Lord ..... So if people say they have no sin or no demon pest then they are deceived as the dark spirit are deceptive ...... And Jesus through faith and repentance and unlegalistic prayer will keep His believers and bless them through out their lives and beyond ...
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:25 AM
 
Location: RI
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Jesus went one further in pointing out what sin( missing the mark) is, especially to those who trusted in themselves that thought they were pleasing to God by outward observance, he pointed out although you might have the outside of the cup all nice and clean, the inside (the thought life) wasn't so.I do not beleve Jesus was bringing criticism upon our thought life( for the Conviction of God is constructive, not critical) but to the leave self righteous without excuse and for those who hunger and thirst after righteousness to make them aware the root of their problem......... their thought life. For as a man thinks in his heart so is he.

So for anyone who has not got their minds completely renewed, to deny they have no sin, is deceiving themselves. The answer to this is to live by faith, and call the things that are not as though they are,this is walking in the light, it is not denying sin, it is denying its power over us, forgiveness is for missing the mark, faith is to look and to live by who God says we are, for he calls the things that are not as though they are.
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:43 AM
 
120 posts, read 50,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
See the world is a dark place , where believers are save through the righteousness of Jesus Christ and not of our own righteousness ........The kingdom of darkness of this world will go against the will of and put sin of man , and build iniquity, and establish transgressions of constant sin, were people under curses of sin are under the control of this dark force........ Where When Jesus saves a person who must prove to Jesus they are receptive to repent and are trying to resist sin and trying to Love the Lord Jesus .....So Jesus takes a believer out of the kingdom of darkness and puts them into the Kingdom of God , and though Jesus cleansing of darkness by Jesus Blood prayers which all and all blessing from Heaven come ..... Jesus manages to cleans the believer who must stay in prayer and keep out of curses from this world and keep sin and the sin of illness and discord out of their lives as they endure to the end to be saved....... Where no one completely overcomes the world , but many believers can keep most away with only a margin of sin , which will have to be manageable to the believer with the Lord ..... So if people say they have no sin or no demon pest then they are deceived as the dark spirit are deceptive ...... And Jesus through faith and repentance and unlegalistic prayer will keep His believers and bless them through out their lives and beyond ...
But what about the context of 1st John? Or the whole book of John for that matter.
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Old 06-24-2012, 07:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Jesus went one further in pointing out what sin( missing the mark) is, especially to those who trusted in themselves that thought they were pleasing to God by outward observance, he pointed out although you might have the outside of the cup all nice and clean, the inside (the thought life) wasn't so. I do not beleve Jesus was bringing criticism upon our thought life (for the Conviction of God is constructive, not critical) but to the leave self righteous without excuse and for those who hunger and thirst after righteousness to make them aware the root of their problem......... their thought life. For as a man thinks in his heart so is he.

So for anyone who has not got their minds completely renewed, to deny they have no sin, is deceiving themselves. The answer to this is to live by faith, and call the things that are not as though they are,this is walking in the light, it is not denying sin, it is denying its power over us, forgiveness is for missing the mark, faith is to look and to live by who God says we are, for he calls the things that are not as though they are.
Very well spoken and of the Spirit brother pcamps! I was going to post, but this says it in a nutshell, but I will add this though...

Most people are living their lives in vain as mentioned above in the bold text in brother pcamps quote. Does this mean they are being judged or criticized as mentioned above by brother pcamps? No, they were not, but to only make them aware of the roots of their own self-righteousness. Sometime we get so stuck in & involved into the happenings of this world instead of loosening ourselves from it, we become self-righteous in everything we do. Greatly to the point of placing ourselves at the helm or in the throne of the temple of God..."YOU" You are the temple of God when we walk and live in the Spirit, a brother or sister in Christ. The Body of Christ Jesus is the whole body of the temple of God....I say Amen and Hallelujah!!!

-Shalom haveri
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Old 06-24-2012, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Florida
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I John 1:8 If we say that we HAVE NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

First, please note that John is NOT saying the following...

"If we say we DO NOT COMMIT SIN we are deceived."

Now please note what John IS saying:

I John 1:8 "If we say that we HAVE NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

So what does the term "we have no sin" mean?

It means: "we have no guilt".

The Greek phrase translated as "have no sin" is: hamartian ouk echomen.

This is the same phrase Jesus used when he told the Pharisees:

John 9:41 "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." (KJV)

The KJV translates "have no sin" which is quite literal but does not convey the sense of Jesus' meaning. The RSV and NIV both point out that "have no sin" is better rendered "have no guilt". For example:

John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains." (RSV)

John 9:41 "Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." (NIV)

Jesus was declaring that if they were ignorant they would have no guilt but because they could see they would be guilty.

Moffat correctly translates 1 John 1:8 as: "If we say we are not guilty"

John was saying that the false teachers would say in some way or another that if we commit sin, our Spirit would "have no guilt".

Daniel Steele D.D. speaking of the verse "...we have no sin" writes: "Because" said the Gnostics, "sin never defiles the soul but the body only, and hence we need no cleansing, having in our spirits no sin to be cleansed from."

“Bengel, Bishop, B.F. Wescott, and others have noted that the phrase, “to have sin", is found only in Johns writings (John 9:41, 15:22,24, 19:11) and that it expresses guilt."
Half-hours With John's Epistles 1901
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:53 AM
 
12,647 posts, read 6,486,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I John 1:8 If we say that we HAVE NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

First, please note that John is NOT saying the following...

"If we say we DO NOT COMMIT SIN we are deceived."

Now please note what John IS saying:

I John 1:8 "If we say that we HAVE NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

So what does the term "we have no sin" mean?

It means: "we have no guilt".

The Greek phrase translated as "have no sin" is: hamartian ouk echomen.

This is the same phrase Jesus used when he told the Pharisees:

John 9:41 "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." (KJV)

The KJV translates "have no sin" which is quite literal but does not convey the sense of Jesus' meaning. The RSV and NIV both point out that "have no sin" is better rendered "have no guilt". For example:

John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains." (RSV)

John 9:41 "Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." (NIV)

Jesus was declaring that if they were ignorant they would have no guilt but because they could see they would be guilty.

Moffat correctly translates 1 John 1:8 as: "If we say we are not guilty"

John was saying that the false teachers would say in some way or another that if we commit sin, our Spirit would "have no guilt".

Daniel Steele D.D. speaking of the verse "...we have no sin" writes: "Because" said the Gnostics, "sin never defiles the soul but the body only, and hence we need no cleansing, having in our spirits no sin to be cleansed from."

“Bengel, Bishop, B.F. Wescott, and others have noted that the phrase, “to have sin", is found only in Johns writings (John 9:41, 15:22,24, 19:11) and that it expresses guilt."
Half-hours With John's Epistles 1901
Hamartia refers to sin. Hamartiology is the branch of Theology which studies sin. In 1 John 1:9 the word sins - is 'hamartias' and is plural - sins.

Man, including the believer, sins because he is a sinner. He was born a sinner and he remains a sinner after salvation. A saint is simply a saved sinner. That is why God made the provision of 1 John 1:9 so that the believer after having sinned need only name the sin to God. He does not have to feel sorry about it and he does not have to promise God that he won't sin again. Because the sin had already been judged at the cross God forgives the sin when the believer simply acknowledges to God that he is guilty of commiting a sin thereby agreeing with God of his guilt.

Any believer who thinks that he does not commit sin never names his sins to God because he doesn't believe that he has sinned. He never applies 1 John 1:9 and therefore is in a perpetual state of carnality and so has no spiritual production.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
He does not have to feel sorry about it and he does not have to promise God that he won't sin again. Because the sin had already been judged at the cross God forgives the sin when the believer simply acknowledges to God that he is guilty of commiting a sin thereby agreeing with God of his guilt.
True, but we must humble ourselves to God our Father and have integrity with Him with our shortcomings. We must acknowledge that we have love for our sin and have a hard time overcoming these shortcoming and/or a specific shortcoming because of our love for it (the love of this world). In doing so, we acknowledge our shortcomings and our weakness in this area of shortcomings, being specific shortcomings or not. When doing this, we need to ask God our Father to teach us how to overcome these shortcomings (to not be over powered by them); what we need to do in our life to change the circumstance that lead us to these shortcomings; and what is still keeping us in these shortcomings to allow us to be over come. Remember, we need to "Be Still". This is all part of the process of "Conviction of the Spirit" and then "Full Repentance on a daily basis" In the long run, we are the master of our fate and the captain of our soul, and we lead ourselves into to sinful ways/life.

The more we grow with the Spirit, and we make a better walk and life in the Spirit, we will sin less.

Sins of Commission - doing what we know is wrong.
Sins of Omission - not doing what we know as right.

Unconfessed sin breaks our fellowship with God our Father. Continued sin unconfessed to God our Father and unforgiven toward man will lead to iniquity, which will turn into generational curse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Any believer who thinks that he does not commit sin never names his sins to God because he doesn't believe that he has sinned. He never applies 1 John 1:9 and therefore is in a perpetual state of carnality and so has no spiritual production.
Thus they are rejecting God or Father and all His Truth and walk among and within themselves. By doing so, they take the throne of the temple of God for themselves, and usurp the Spirit of God.

Each and everyday I acknowledge all my weaknesses and for conviction for weaknesses I am not aware of. I ask Him what can I do to overcome these shortcomings, to show me the circumstances that lead me to choosing (incidental or not) these shortcomings so I may learn from them through the wisdom and knowledge of the Spirit, and what I can do to not allow myself be overpowered by them again.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:12 PM
 
12,647 posts, read 6,486,069 times
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Originally Posted by ChiliPepper1 View Post
True, but we must humble ourselves to God our Father and have integrity with Him with our shortcomings. We must acknowledge that we have love for our sin and have a hard time overcoming these shortcoming and/or a specific shortcoming because of our love for it (the love of this world). In doing so, we acknowledge our shortcomings and our weakness in this area of shortcomings, being specific shortcomings or not. When doing this, we need to ask God our Father to teach us how to overcome these shortcomings (to not be over powered by them); what we need to do in our life to change the circumstance that lead us to these shortcomings; and what is still keeping us in these shortcomings to allow us to be over come. Remember, we need to "Be Still". This is all part of the process of "Conviction of the Spirit" and then "Full Repentance on a daily basis" In the long run, we are the master of our fate and the captain of our soul, and we lead ourselves into to sinful ways/life.

The more we grow with the Spirit, and we make a better walk and life in the Spirit, we will sin less.

Sins of Commission - doing what we know is wrong.
Sins of Omission - not doing what we know as right.

Unconfessed sin breaks our fellowship with God our Father. Continued sin unconfessed to God our Father and unforgiven toward man will lead to iniquity, which will turn into generational curse.


Thus they are rejecting God or Father and all His Truth and walk among and within themselves. By doing so, they take the throne of the temple of God for themselves, and usurp the Spirit of God.

Each and everyday I acknowledge all my weaknesses and for conviction for weaknesses I am not aware of. I ask Him what can I do to overcome these shortcomings, to show me the circumstances that lead me to choosing (incidental or not) these shortcomings so I may learn from them through the wisdom and knowledge of the Spirit, and what I can do to not allow myself be overpowered by them again.
Don't confuse spirituality with spiritual growth. Spirituality is absolute. At any given moment the believer, regardless of his degree of spiritual growth, is either in status quo spirituality or status quo carnality. Spiritual growth on the other hand is relative. At any given moment the believer is either advancing or retrogressing in his spiritual life.

The only requirement to immediately regain the filling of the Spirit is to name, cite, identify, or acknowledge the particular sin that was committed as 1 John 1:9 states. Just as nothing is to be added to faith alone in Christ alone for eternal life, so also nothing is to be added to what 1 John 1:9 states in order to get back into fellowship.

With continued spiritual growth the believer will outgrow certain sins even though he may begin committing other sins.

When you as a believer sin, simply name it, forget it, and move on in your spiritual life through metabolization and application of the word of God in your life.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
When you as a believer sin, simply name it, forget it, and move on in your spiritual life through metabolization and application of the word of God in your life.
Name it? Yes! Forget it? Yes! Move on? Yes! But to ask God our Father to help us understand how to overcome this shortcoming with His strength, guidance, and direction is how we overcome these sinful desires of our flesh. Brother, how are you to overcome these shortcomings so not to continue the same ole sins over and over again, if you do not know what lead you to this, so you may overcome them through the Spirit. It is about not allowing ourselves be overpowered by them so we may sin far less. This is the growth we have in the Spirit, as it is called growing within the Spirit or in Gods wisdom and knowledge (His love).

I understand what you are saying Mike, as God knows we are of sin and we are forgiven but only through true repentance. Part of true repentance is to not commit the same ole sin over and over again, as this then becomes iniquity. WE do this ourselves, with no help from God our Father or Satan and his most unclean minion.
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