How to believe the Trinity? I dont get it (hell, beliefs, evolve)

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Verna Perry

There are so much more important things for you to be concerned about as it pertains to receiving your eternal life/salvation...before you go on and try to conquer less important things as it pertains to spiritual truth....but you seek, so I will offer this truth to you nevertheless...

Briefly stated, the doctrine of "The Trinity" declares that God, the Supreme Being consists of three persons: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit who are each co-equal and co-eternal.

Down through the centuries many brilliant theologians have labored to establish the Trinitarian doctrine as the foundational truth of Christianity. However, There are two unimpeachable witnesses whose quiet testimony proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the doctrine of The Trinity is a fraud:

1. The Biblical Witness:

The three-in-one God doctrine is not presented anywhere in the Bible. The Trinity was not taught by the prophets or the apostles, and more importantly, it was not taught by Jesus.

2. The Historical Witness:

There is no record of the co-equal, co-eternal, three-in-one God being taught by a single one of the early church fathers. It was not a part of Christian teaching until it was formulated by the Second Ecumenical Council at Constantinople in 381.A.D.

Jesus did not teach the Trinity, the apostles did not teach it, and it was not taught by church leaders for three hundred years after the death of Christ. It seems to me that knowing these facts, no reasonable person could possibly believe that the Trinity is the key doctrine of Christendom. And yet most theologians and church leaders continue to ignore the eloquent silence of these witnesses and insist that the 3-in-1 God is the God of the Bible. Why?

For sixteen hundred years Trinitarian churches have cast out and even murdered those who refused to believe in their definition of God. Today, an adulterer or murderer who says he loves Jesus is accepted by their churches - but, they say, the one who refuses to believe in the Trinity cannot be saved. That is the great tragedy of Trinitarianism; it has become the test of faith.

The true test of a believer is given by the apostle John:

"He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar," (1 John 2:4)

On the contrary, the Trinitarians would say:

"He that saith, I know Him and believeth not in the Trinity is a liar,"

Through the doctrine of the Trinity, Satan has managed to shift the focus from obedience to the commandments of God as the test of orthodoxy, to belief in a type of God invented by a few theologians of the fourth century.

The foundation of Trinitarian doctrine is the fifth century Athanasian Creed which says this of the Trinity:

"...And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity...the whole three persons co-eternal and co-equal...He therefore that will be saved >MUST THINK THUS< of the Trinity." I ask you, Where is THAT found in the Bible?

The answer is of course, that it is not found in the word of God, rather, it comes from deductions and suppositions about the word of God. Trinitarians offer forced interpretations of ambiguous verses, while ignoring clear statements of Jesus and the apostles which contradict their doctrine. For example:

"The Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

"...the head of every man is Christ...and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)

I hope my Trinitarian brethren will look at those verses with an open mind for just a few moments. Think about it...If the head of Christ is God then how could they be co-equal? The word "co" means - in the same way. If Jesus is not equal in authority, he is not co-equal. Remember, Paul was talking about Jesus after His resurrection, not when he was on earth as man.

In 1 Corinthians 15:27, Paul wrote:

"For He [God the Father] has put all things in subjection under His [Jesus] feet. But when it says, 'All things are put in subjection under Him' it is plain that He is excepted who put all things under Him."

If Jesus was co-equal with the Father, why would there be a need to put all things in subjection under Him? Daniel wrote:

"...and he [Jesus] came to the Ancient of days and was presented before Him. And to Him was >given< dominion, and glory and kingdom," (Dan 7:13)

I do not understand how Trinitarians can read those words "was given dominion" and believe that Jesus is co-equal with the Father. How could Jesus be given anything if He really was eternal God?

I hope all who read this message will search their hearts and their Bibles for the reason why some Christians should reject those of us who love Jesus and give our lives to serve him, just because we
have different views concerning the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The question I would ask you is: Where did Jesus or the apostles ever teach that we should judge our brethren by the doctrine of the Trinity? I cannot find one. Can you?


God Bless you TyTy.

Did the owner send his son in his name?...Yes...Did the owner himself go and was not recognized?...no...


Luk 20:9 And He began to speak this parable to the people: A certain man (HaShem?) planted a vineyard and let it out to vinedressers (Yisrael?). And he left the country for long periods of time. Isa. 5:1, 2
Luk 20:10 And in season, he sent a slave (Prophet?) to the vinedressers, that they might give him the fruit of the vineyard. But the vinedressers sent him away empty, beating him.
Luk 20:11 And he again sent another slave. But they also sent that one away empty, beating and insulting him.
Luk 20:12 And he again sent a third. But they also threw this one out, wounding him.
Luk 20:13 And the lord of the vineyard said, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son (Yeshua?). Perhaps, having seen this one, they will respect him.
Luk 20:14 And having seen him, the vinedressers reasoned with themselves, saying, This is the heir. Come let us kill him so that the inheritance may become ours.
Luk 20:15 And throwing him out of the vineyard, they killed him. Therefore, what will the lord of the vineyard do to them?
Luk 20:16 He will come and will destroy these vinedressers and will give the vineyard to others (the Nations"). And hearing this, they said, Let it not be!

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Illuin

"Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"(2 Corinthians 1:3).

If our Lord has a God and Father, He cannot be the God and Father. His greatest delight is to do His Father's will. How can He do that if He is the Father?

If the confusion of man's babel were removed from the equation, a five year old child can easily understand this:

God takes the thing most dear to him, HIS WORD, physically separates it from Himself, and causes it to become a human being.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14)

Who MADE the Word flesh?

It's that simple!

And to verify this New Creation is the Father's Son, He must be enabled to do those things that the Father can do, so Jesus is anointed (made Christ) by receiving God's Spirit which empowers him.

God's name is Yahweh, who father of all. Jesus is Yahshua the Christ who is the Son of God the first begotten of the Father. Jesus issues from God's being (the only begotten of the Father). It is necessary for Jesus to issue from God's being for two reasons: 1) the sacrifice must be both perfect and holy; and 2) it must be a thing that God personally gives up (sacrifices)

If that body was not Jesus, then what was it that died on the cross? Was it only some flesh? Or, did the real Jesus die?

If God cannot die, and if Jesus Christ is God, then Jesus Christ did not actually "die" on the cross. If the Father can't die, what actually took place on the cross? If Christ is God, and He actually died on the cross, then Who was running the universe while God was dead?

Jesus Christ is commissioned by God to finish the work given Him by His Father (John 17:3-4). If Jesus Christ is God, then how can He be commissioned? If Jesus (who is the same entity as God) is commissioned, then what God above Him is commissioning Him?

Jesus is GIVEN POWER AND AUTHORITY TO RULE for a TIME. WHO gave him that power and authority?

This is not difficult to understand, unless you choose to make it difficult by listening to Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite. The triune god is a pagan concept powered by Gnosticism. It is not Biblical.

Amen . It really is that simple when the confusion of man's babel is removed, that a 5 year old child an understand it.

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Amen . It really is that simple when the confusion of man's babel is removed, that a 5 year old child an understand it.

RESPONSE:

Do you know how to separate just stories from historical events, that is, things that really happened?.

Most five year olds can do that.

The Trinity story is such. It had to be created in the second century to explain why there were now two divine persons (without admitting to polytheism)

If you like religious stories, almost all of the world's religions have holy books containing such wonderous stories of events brought about by God or the gods.

Why don't you start with the Veda which is much older than the Bible?

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

RESPONSE:

Do you know how to separate just stories from historical events, that is, things that really happened?.

Most five year olds can do that.

The Trinity story is such. It had to be created in the second century to explain why there were now two divine persons (without admitting to polytheism)

If you like religious stories, almost all of the world's religions have holy books containing such wonderous stories of events brought about by God or the gods.

Why don't you start with the Veda which is much older than the Bible?

I worry about you some times AW. I do not believe in the trinity doctrine.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mike 555

Jesus Christ is God. But He is not the Father. Jesus is the name of His humanity. As God He has eternally existed with the First Person of the Trinity (the Father) who is the author and designer of the plan of creation and salvation, and with the Third Person of the Trinity (The Holy Spirit). The Persons of the Trinity are co-equal and co-eternal.

The only problem there is it creates three gods. Thats why the Trinity is false. If Jesus is God he is the only one who is. Trinitarianism tries to overule this most important Bible truth. God's not for it neither in it.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The only problem there is it creates three gods. Thats why the Trinity is false. If Jesus is God he is the only one who is. Trinitarianism tries to overule this most important Bible truth. God's not for it neither in it.

This is a hard battle to fight....Even harder than the proclamation of UR to the ETer's. Your fight here is against the flesh, the natural man that receives not the things of the Spirit.

Unless Jesus Himself, by His Spirit (the Holy Spirit), reveals the Oneness of God directly to a person's heart, they will not (or rather cannot) believe. Not all have had this revelation my friend.

[ShanaBrown]

Can one who has a God be fully God? God bless and peace.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The only problem there is it creates three gods. Thats why the Trinity is false. If Jesus is God he is the only one who is. Trinitarianism tries to overule this most important Bible truth. God's not for it neither in it.

Actually the problem isn't with the Bible. Scripture does not create three gods, not allowing scripture to speak for itself does.
For if scripture is allowed to speak for itself then the doctrine of the Trinity is the truth.
For in scipture we read:

• Father is God Gal 1:1
• The Son is God John 8:58, John 1:1
• The H.S. is God Acts 5:4

God refers to himself in the singular yet also in plural

One God (Singular)

Deuteronomy 4:35
“You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other."

Singular \ Plural referance to himself

Isaiah 6:8
"Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"

The Trinity was present at Jesus' baptism

1. The Father spoke
2. The Son (Jesus) in the water
3. The H.S. decended

Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,”

[ShanaBrown]

AlabamaStorm, can you respond to my question when you get a chance? My scriptural reference is:

Rev. 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

And scriptures which speak of the subjection of Jesus to the Father like in 1 Cor. 15


27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “ All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

These scriptures and others show to me that Jesus has a God today and that He is subject to the Father, who is His God. He is the image of the Father, and represents Him, as He contains the fullness of Deity, however, He tells us that He has a God.

Thanks and God bless.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by snowdenscold
Now, ice is H2O, water is H2O, and vapor is H2O.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
What it boils down to is a loss of volume called evaporation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
That's a good application of humanistic one liners found in fortune cookies..... but not towards Biblical truths.

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Thank you for the compliment, Twin. However, you may want to consider
the fact that human reasoning is within the body of your own conclusions.

snowdenscold was trying to use some other analogy that you could relate to other than what you have no desire to learn from.

But even in his attempt one can't expect the spirituallty discerned to grasp the truths spoken in the Bible if they so wantonly refuse to see or hear.

As Jesus said:
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

It's writen very clearly in the Bible.

• Father is God Gal 1:1
• The Son is God John 8:58, John 1:1
• The H.S. is God Acts 5:4

Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,”