Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Who cares? You mean it does not matter to you that the thing you feel is the most important characteristic, the defining characteristic for being a Christian, is a teaching that cannot be found in the Bible? It doesn't matter as long as you have many others beside you sharing that belief? Mat 7:13-14
Trinitarianism is the belief that God gave his life for our sins. Christianity is the belief that Jesus gave his life for our sins. I really want to see this scriptural reference that says we must believe God gave his life for our sins. Please show us where in the Bible does it say that we have to believe GOD (a triune god) gave his life for our sins? JWs do not share in this belief because it is not scriptural, and we are thus not part of the trinitarian family.
This is part of the trinitarian deception. There is this language that is used to obfiscate the truth. You SEE where the Bible refers to Jesus as God. SEE is a synonym for interpret. EVERYONE knows that the trinity is not taught in the Bible. However, it is enough for trinitarians to SEE an inference that Jesus is God (not even a trinity statement), and that is enough justificaton to accept a non-scriptual belief. However, unless you have already accepted that false doctrine, the trinity is no where in the Bible.
The key question is not can the trinity be SEEN in the Bible, but can it be READ. On this criteria the doctrine of the triune god cannot be found.
It never fails that there has to be some completely false statement included about what JWs believe.
God did not give up His life for the world. He gave up His only begotten Son's flesh and blood for the world to proof to man how evil man can be and show mercy as to how good God can be.
JN 6:51-66 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us His flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For My is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eats My flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him. As the living Father has sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats Me, even he shall live by Me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eat of this bread shall live for ever. These things said He in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of His disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where He was before? It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing [unless you understand the spiritual meaning it will profit you nothing]: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with Him."
You really have no idea what trinity means though you think you do. You are miles apart from my understanding of trinity.Though Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, God is way more then that and cannot die spiritually speaking and that is why He was resurrected to prove that He has Eternal life.
Mikelee81,
I am not going to try to explain the fallacy of all of the copied and pasted propaganda you can find on the web. I am not a cat and your propogada is not a laser for me
Just because you can fill a page(s) with information that you are gullible enough to believe is authoritative, does not mean you have proved a point.
The only point you really proved is that you do not understand basic principles of translation and must rely on the web to even present an idea on the topic. You also validated my previous point that you do not care to learn because you are satisfied that the information on the web does not contradict your interpretation. Are you even concerned that the translation explanations you presented are different from one another? Does it matter to you that they demonstrate a disregard for basic academic principles of translation? Just as long as they reach the conclusion you wanted to hear, the validity of the presentation is immaterial?
If you have A scripture YOU want to discuss or explain I would gladly join in a dialog. However, I am not going to engage in the endless effort of addressing all the muck you can find on the web.
However, I would like to comment on one thing that you posted that I found VERY ironic.
Regarding the list of all of the “Lord” is mistranslated as “Jehovah.” stuff; I will not try to explain right now why those accusations you posted are wrong, but I think it is so appropriate that the Textus Receptus is one of the reference texts used to validate that emendation in the NWT.
Translation Kurio as Jehovah not Lord is an incorrect translation. Translation Theos as Jehovah not God is an incorrect translation. The Watchtower is playing with God's Word to fit their ideology.
If they do not use Textus Receptus, than it does not matter if they have it in their reference.
John 8:58 Authorized KJV Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
New Word Translation
Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
Exodus 3:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Jesus Christ is the "I Am". The "I Am" is YHWH God.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
New World Translation
16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’
The Word is "theos" not "He" as the New World Translation has it or "Who" as the 1985 Kingdom Interlinear Translation (which is an entirely different word than Theos in the Greek) has it.
The Watchtower Organization is changing the Word of God in an attempt to dethrone Jesus Christ as God manifest in the flesh.They are misleading their followers as they go door to door in attempt to earn their salvation as the 144,000 (which is talking about the literal blood descendents from the tribes of Israel) and while doing so are spreading a false witness of who Jesus Christ really is - YHWH God incarnate.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 08-01-2012 at 07:24 AM..
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Colossians 1:14-17
New World Translation
14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,
Jehovah Witness like to use the tern "firstborn" to imply that Jesus was the first Created. If he was created than he could not create ALL things. Thus why the word "other" is inserted without ANY Scriptural basis other than an interpreters inserted assumption that if Jesus Christ was the first of the created, than he could not create ALL things. You will not find "other" in the Greek.
"all things" in the Greek means what it says.. all things.
What does "firstborn" mean?... Throughout the Old Testament, "first born" talks about position of preeminence or inheritance as Heir not first of genealogy necessarily. Esau sold his birthright as "first born". To imply "firstborn" means first Created is contrived to fit the theology of Jehovah Witness and doesn't fit what the Greek says.
"first born" as well as "only begotten" is referring to position not geneology.
Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Isaac was not Abraham's only Son according to genealogy as there was also Ishmael.
Romans 9:7
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Firstborn is a messianic title referring to position not genealogy.
Psalm 89:20-29
King James Version (KJV)
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
All things were Created by Jesus Christ just as it says.
..."let us make man in our own image"... "in the beginning God< 'Elohiym> (plural noun used in the singular) Created the Heavens and the Earth.
God did not give up His life for the world. He gave up His only begotten Son's flesh and blood for the world to proof to man how evil man can be and show mercy as to how good God can be.
JN 6:51-66 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us His flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For My is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eats My flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him. As the living Father has sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats Me, even he shall live by Me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eat of this bread shall live for ever. These things said He in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of His disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where He was before? It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing [unless you understand the spiritual meaning it will profit you nothing]: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with Him."
You really have no idea what trinity means though you think you do. You are miles apart from my understanding of trinity.Though Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, God is way more then that and cannot die spiritually speaking and that is why He was resurrected to prove that He has Eternal life.
Hashem raised Yeshua from the dead...Not Yeshua Himself...
Hashem raised Yeshua from the dead...Not Yeshua Himself...
Though Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, God is way more then that and cannot die spiritually speaking and that is why He was resurrected to prove that He has Eternal life.
Hashem raised Yeshua from the dead...Not Yeshua Himself...
John 2:18-21
King James Version (KJV)
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
I will raise - Strong's G1453 - egeirō
1) to arouse, cause to rise a) to arouse from sleep, to awake b) to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life c) to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc. d) to raise up, produce, cause to appear 1) to cause to appear, bring before the public 2) to raise up, stir up, against one 3) to raise up i.e. cause to be born 4) of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect
Proper interpretaion.. "Break down this body, and three days I will raise it up... The Lord Jesus Christ said he will raise up his own Body.
It's interesting that this verse can be used with the Jehovah Witness New World Translation Bible to point to the Divinity of Jesus Christ as well.
John 2:19-21
New World Translation
19 In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Therefore the Jews said: “This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was talking about the temple of his body.
The Resurrection is attributed to all three persons of the Godhead - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
The Resurrection of Christ
• Father: Acts 2:24; Romans 6:4.
• Son: John 10:17, 18; John 2:19.
• Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18; Romans 8:11.
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
I will raise - Strong's G1453 - egeirō
1) to arouse, cause to rise a) to arouse from sleep, to awake b) to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life c) to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc. d) to raise up, produce, cause to appear 1) to cause to appear, bring before the public 2) to raise up, stir up, against one 3) to raise up i.e. cause to be born 4) of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect
Proper interpretaion.. "Break down this body, and three days I will raise it up... The Lord Jesus Christ said he will raise up his own Body.
It's interesting that this verse can be used with the Jehovah Witness New World Translation Bible to point to the Divinity of Jesus Christ as well.
John 2:19-21
New World Translation
19 In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Therefore the Jews said: “This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was talking about the temple of his body.
The Resurrection is attributed to all three persons of the Godhead - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
The Resurrection of Christ
• Father: Acts 2:24; Romans 6:4.
• Son: John 10:17, 18; John 2:19.
• Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18; Romans 8:11.
Yes indeed and where Scripture says that God raised up Jesus, the only conclusion is that Jesus is God therefor able to raise Himself up.
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
I will raise - Strong's G1453 - egeirō
1) to arouse, cause to rise a) to arouse from sleep, to awake b) to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life c) to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc. d) to raise up, produce, cause to appear 1) to cause to appear, bring before the public 2) to raise up, stir up, against one 3) to raise up i.e. cause to be born 4) of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect
Proper interpretaion.. "Break down this body, and three days I will raise it up... The Lord Jesus Christ said he will raise up his own Body.
It's interesting that this verse can be used with the Jehovah Witness New World Translation Bible to point to the Divinity of Jesus Christ as well.
John 2:19-21
New World Translation
19 In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Therefore the Jews said: “This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was talking about the temple of his body.
The Resurrection is attributed to all three persons of the Godhead - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
The Resurrection of Christ
• Father: Acts 2:24; Romans 6:4.
• Son: John 10:17, 18; John 2:19.
• Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18; Romans 8:11.
God did not give up His life for the world. He gave up His only begotten Son's flesh and blood for the world to proof to man how evil man can be and show mercy as to how good God can be.
JN 6:51-66 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us His flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For My is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eats My flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him. As the living Father has sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats Me, even he shall live by Me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eat of this bread shall live for ever. These things said He in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of His disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where He was before? It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing [unless you understand the spiritual meaning it will profit you nothing]: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with Him."
You really have no idea what trinity means though you think you do. You are miles apart from my understanding of trinity.Though Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, God is way more then that and cannot die spiritually speaking and that is why He was resurrected to prove that He has Eternal life.
I appreciate your view, but just because I reject the trinity does not mean I do not know it. I was raised and studied in Protestant faiths for many years and have always had a keen interest in spiritual matters, since a very young age. Maybe you feel I do not understand because of saying things like "God gave his life for our sins". However what you may have failed to notice is that I was qUoting what a trinitarian posted.
I look forward to seeing your expainations too and how many other trinitarians may contradict your statements thinking they originated from me.
The challenge is for the trinitarians, not I. The trinity is not in the Bible. I cannot prove a negative. It is up to a trinitarian to provide the proof, or acknowledge that their belief is not in the Bible. (or just remain in denial)
The challenge is really not that hard. Just show where the Bible explicitly states:
There is a triune god
You must believe in the triune God to be saved
The explanation of any of the tenets of the trinity
SEEING(inferring or interpreting) is not a proof. You must be able to READ an explicit statement. Implications by default mean you have to have the base knowledge to understand. You may have the "knowledge" to see the implication, but it is not scriptural knowledge. To consider it scriptural knowledge you are required to have explicit scriptual teaching.
You can provide that?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
John 2:18-21
