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Anyone remember the Bill Cosby skit about Noah and the Ark?
God : Noah, I want you to build an Ark
Noah : Riiiiiight. What's an Ark?
" The Bible is “revelation.” As revelation it is meant to “reveal,” not “conceal.” It is not a book of hidden mysteries (though there are mysteries in it), it is a book meant to open the understanding of the reader."
Paul called it the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Corinthians 11:3)
The holy Spirit circumcised my heart when I was the ripe age of 45 years; I'm now 54. When I entered by the gate I didn't know anything about any catching up (rapture), let alone about any pre, post or mid trib beliefs. So rather than ask someone in the church I was in fellowship with at the time, I decided to open my bible and ask the Lord to show me. I came to believe post trib is the truth of the word; that the one and only Church is going through, not being removed from (unless we go to the sword, or the grave, before the Lord returns).
Firstly:
I started out reading about Noah and the flood, how the ark (a HUGE rectangular wooden box, a 'type' of the ark of the covenant and therefore a 'type' of Christ Himself) is what Noah was IN and no human sealed the door ... GOD SEALED THE DOOR of the ark. This is a very important occurrence because NT believers are sealed in Christ, by the holy Spirit. Then, Noah was given the amazing privilege to have to ride out the tribulation and when God popped him out the other end, lo and behold, Noah stepped out into a whole New World that had been made clean by the washing of water
Secondly:
The book of Matthew, chapter 24 is perhaps the most often referred to book in the NT when it comes to the trib debate ... that and 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 17.
In Matthew 24 I read no mention or even a hint to, a pre-trib catching up of the saints but rather, Jesus gives an overview of the future for the Church just prior to His return and, what His return will be like. What struck me as most important isn't about any details of pre or post trib, but that Jesus warns the saints not once, but FOUR times, to be careful they do not get deceived.
Thirdly:
the great trib is seven years in length. The first 3 1/2 years are world peace, world prosperity and all joy, pleasure, fun and frolic in the sun. The next three and a half years are hell on earth, at the least, for the saints ... and the Jews, who suddenly realize who their leader really is (who would be allowed to sit in someone's holy of holies?).
Some say that the word 'church' is no longer used after the great tribulation begins and therefore the Church has been taken out but that is not the truth ... scripture uses the word 'saints' and THEY are THE Church and so the Church is always there (a remnant always remains here on earth, as Elijah found out and as Paul states in Romans 11:5)
Fourthly:
In 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 Paul talks about the catching up (today, many call it the Rapture). Note that Paul writes in a present tense, often using the word "we". Also note that there is an angel who blows a trumpet, and the Lord coming down to earth on a cloud (an angel had said He would return the same way as the believers saw Him leave [on a cloud] - Acts 1:11).
I usually do not highlite but in this case, I'll make an exception ...
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heavenwith a shout
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
In Matthew 24, the disciples had asked Jesus to tell them about the end of the world, and that's exactly what Jesus chose to do (note how Jesus starts His sharing, "Take heed that no man deceive you") and there is no hint whatsoever where Jesus says anything about taking anyone out of the world so that they did not have to go through what was too come. Rather, in His High Priestly Pray Jesus said the following:
Joh 17:15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil
Tomana, the Greek word translated 'Saint' is 'hagios' and is used not only for the New Testament church, but also for Old Testament saints and for the elect angels.
Of angels: Hagios - holy, set apart, and therefore - 'saint' Mark 8:38 and Rev. 14:10.
Mark 8:38 "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy (hagiōn) angels."
Rev. 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy (hagiōn) angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Of Old Testament saints: Hagios - holy, set apart, and therfore - 'saint' Matt. 27:52.
Matt. 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints (hagiōn) who had fallen asleep were raised;
These were Old Testament saints who were resucitated still during the age of Israel. The church age had not yet begun.
Deut 33:3 "Indeed, He loves the people; All Your holy ones (saints - qadosh [Hebrew]) are in Your hand, And they followed in Your steps; Everyone receives of Your words.
John 17:15 is not a reference to the rapture of the church but simply refers to the fact that during the church age God's plan is not to remove believers from danger and opposition, at least until it is time for them to die, but to preserve them in the conflict. However, God's plan also calls for an end to the church age which will terminate with the pre-tribulational rapture.
The church is not going to go through the Tribulation. The church which is the bride of Christ is shown in heaven during the Tribulation in Revelation 19:7-8. Furthermore, the 24 elders (Rev 4:10) are best explained as representing the raptured church, although not all theologians agree with that.
The Tribulation is God's judgment on unbelieving Israel and on the unbelieving Gentile nations. By definition the church is neither one. The church is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) which is regarded by God as neither Jew or Gentile (Gal 3:28), but as church. The Tribulation is the time of Jacob's trouble (Jer 30:7), and is Daniel's seventieth week in Daniel's prophecy in Dan 9:24-27.
God's program for Israel is always kept separate from His program for the church.
The Tribulation does not begin with the rapture of the church, but with the making of a covenant with the many by the antichrist (Dan 9:27). The antichrist cannot appear until the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit is removed with the removal of the church from the earth. The Holy Spirit indwells the church age believer, and when the church is removed so is His ministry, although the Holy Spirit Himself, being God, is omnipresent and is not Himself removed. It is His restraining ministry which is lifted (2 Thess 2:6-7).
Another thing that needs to be understood is that the book of Revelation is divided into three sections as described by Rev 1:19.
Rev 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
1.) The things which you have seen refer to the things described in Chapter 1.
2.) The things which are refer to the present church age which are represented by the seven churches in chapters 2 and 3.
3.) The things which will take place after these things refer to those things which will occur after the church age - The Tribulation, the coming of Christ to set up His Millennial kingdom, the great white throne judgment, and the new heavens and new earth (Chapters 4 - 22) Chapters 4-19 cover the events of the Tribulation.
Tomana, the Greek word translated 'Saint' is 'hagios' and is used not only for the New Testament church, but also for Old Testament saints and for the elect angels.
Of angels: Hagios - holy, set apart, and therefore - 'saint' Mark 8:38 and Rev. 14:10.
Mark 8:38 "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy (hagiōn) angels."
Rev. 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy (hagiōn) angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Of Old Testament saints: Hagios - holy, set apart, and therfore - 'saint' Matt. 27:52.
Matt. 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints (hagiōn) who had fallen asleep were raised;
These were Old Testament saints who were resucitated still during the age of Israel. The church age had not yet begun.
Deut 33:3 "Indeed, He loves the people; All Your holy ones (saints - qadosh [Hebrew]) are in Your hand, And they followed in Your steps; Everyone receives of Your words.
John 17:15 is not a reference to the rapture of the church but simply refers to the fact that during the church age God's plan is not to remove believers from danger and opposition, at least until it is time for them to die, but to preserve them in the conflict. However, God's plan also calls for an end to the church age which will terminate with the pre-tribulational rapture.
The church is not going to go through the Tribulation. The church which is the bride of Christ is shown in heaven during the Tribulation in Revelation 19:7-8. Furthermore, the 24 elders (Rev 4:10) are best explained as representing the raptured church, although not all theologians agree with that.
The Tribulation is God's judgment on unbelieving Israel and on the unbelieving Gentile nations. By definition the church is neither one. The church is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) which is regarded by God as neither Jew or Gentile (Gal 3:28), but as church. The Tribulation is the time of Jacob's trouble (Jer 30:7), and is Daniel's seventieth week in Daniel's prophecy in Dan 9:24-27.
God's program for Israel is always kept separate from His program for the church.
The Tribulation does not begin with the rapture of the church, but with the making of a covenant with the many by the antichrist (Dan 9:27). The antichrist cannot appear until the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit is removed with the removal of the church from the earth. The Holy Spirit indwells the church age believer, and when the church is removed so is His ministry, although the Holy Spirit Himself, being God, is omnipresent and is not Himself removed. It is His restraining ministry which is lifted (2 Thess 2:6-7).
Another thing that needs to be understood is that the book of Revelation is divided into three sections as described by Rev 1:19.
Rev 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
1.) The things which you have seen refer to the things described in Chapter 1.
2.) The things which are refer to the present church age which are represented by the seven churches in chapters 2 and 3.
3.) The things which will take place after these things refer to those things which will occur after the church age - The Tribulation, the coming of Christ to set up His Millennial kingdom, the great white throne judgment, and the new heavens and new earth (Chapters 4 - 22) Chapters 4-19 cover the events of the Tribulation.
~ There is no Scripture Quote for The Bride 0f Christ. This is a false doctrine.
There will be "The Marriage 0f The Lamb", "The Marriage Supper 0r The Lamb", "The LAMB'S Wife".
So if one is going to use
a Scriptural phrase for "The Bridegroom" then the referance Is "The Lamb".
As even John The Baptist ear marked "The Bridegroom" as
"The Lamb 0f God Who Takes Away The Sins 0f The World". - John1 & 3
The term The Bride 0f Christ is what Pastors have used to
group everyone together who says "Lord, Lord" as Some-Bride 0f Christ.
To fill Pocket & Pew of their head patting sermons.
I will marry "The Lamb" In Heaven Before The Throne. - Rev.7
And go to "The Marriage Supper 0f The Lamb". - Rev.19
Anyone remember the Bill Cosby skit about Noah and the Ark?
God : Noah, I want you to build an Ark
Noah : Riiiiiight. What's an Ark?
" The Bible is “revelation.” As revelation it is meant to “reveal,” not “conceal.” It is not a book of hidden mysteries (though there are mysteries in it), it is a book meant to open the understanding of the reader."
Paul called it the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Corinthians 11:3)
The holy Spirit circumcised my heart when I was the ripe age of 45 years; I'm now 54. When I entered by the gate I didn't know anything about any catching up (rapture), let alone about any pre, post or mid trib beliefs. So rather than ask someone in the church I was in fellowship with at the time, I decided to open my bible and ask the Lord to show me. I came to believe post trib is the truth of the word; that the one and only Church is going through, not being removed from (unless we go to the sword, or the grave, before the Lord returns).
Firstly:
I started out reading about Noah and the flood, how the ark (a HUGE rectangular wooden box, a 'type' of the ark of the covenant and therefore a 'type' of Christ Himself) is what Noah was IN and no human sealed the door ... GOD SEALED THE DOOR of the ark. This is a very important occurrence because NT believers are sealed in Christ, by the holy Spirit. Then, Noah was given the amazing privilege to have to ride out the tribulation and when God popped him out the other end, lo and behold, Noah stepped out into a whole New World that had been made clean by the washing of water
Secondly:
The book of Matthew, chapter 24 is perhaps the most often referred to book in the NT when it comes to the trib debate ... that and 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 17.
In Matthew 24 I read no mention or even a hint to, a pre-trib catching up of the saints but rather, Jesus gives an overview of the future for the Church just prior to His return and, what His return will be like. What struck me as most important isn't about any details of pre or post trib, but that Jesus warns the saints not once, but FOUR times, to be careful they do not get deceived.
Thirdly:
the great trib is seven years in length. The first 3 1/2 years are world peace, world prosperity and all joy, pleasure, fun and frolic in the sun. The next three and a half years are hell on earth, at the least, for the saints ... and the Jews, who suddenly realize who their leader really is (who would be allowed to sit in someone's holy of holies?).
Some say that the word 'church' is no longer used after the great tribulation begins and therefore the Church has been taken out but that is not the truth ... scripture uses the word 'saints' and THEY are THE Church and so the Church is always there (a remnant always remains here on earth, as Elijah found out and as Paul states in Romans 11:5)
Fourthly:
In 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 Paul talks about the catching up (today, many call it the Rapture). Note that Paul writes in a present tense, often using the word "we". Also note that there is an angel who blows a trumpet, and the Lord coming down to earth on a cloud (an angel had said He would return the same way as the believers saw Him leave [on a cloud] - Acts 1:11).
I usually do not highlite but in this case, I'll make an exception ...
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heavenwith a shout
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
In Matthew 24, the disciples had asked Jesus to tell them about the end of the world, and that's exactly what Jesus chose to do (note how Jesus starts His sharing, "Take heed that no man deceive you") and there is no hint whatsoever where Jesus says anything about taking anyone out of the world so that they did not have to go through what was too come. Rather, in His High Priestly Pray Jesus said the following:
Joh 17:15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil
~ There is no Scripture Quote for The Bride 0f Christ. This is a false doctrine.
There will be "The Marriage 0f The Lamb", "The Marriage Supper 0r The Lamb", "The LAMB'S Wife".
So if one is going to use
a Scriptural phrase for "The Bridegroom" then the referance Is "The Lamb".
As even John The Baptist ear marked "The Bridegroom" as
"The Lamb 0f God Who Takes Away The Sins 0f The World". - John1 & 3
The term The Bride 0f Christ is what Pastors have used to
group everyone together who says "Lord, Lord" as Some-Bride 0f Christ.
To fill Pocket & Pew of their head patting sermons.
I will marry "The Lamb" In Heaven Before The Throne. - Rev.7
And go to "The Marriage Supper 0f The Lamb". - Rev.19
Pandora, Rev 19:7 'His bride' >> Christ's bride refers to the church. Therefore the church is the bride of Christ.
The false Doctrine says it's refers to Christ. But that can not be quoted.
"For The MARRIAGE 0f The LAMB has Come (not the wedding has come)
And HIS WIFE Has Made Herself Ready" - Rev.19:7
'Ready' for what? Read on..."The MARRIAGE SUPPER 0f The Lamb" - Rev.9:19
Not The Wedding Supper of Christ and The Church.
The Great Multitude is the loud Voice. - Rev.19:1
The Great Multitude says 'Let Us be glad' - Rev.19:6,7
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevelationWriter
Jesus Said, "The Bridegroom" not Christ.
"The Bridegroom" will only take "The Wise Virgins" "Into The Wedding".
But, Not So Says Pastor's 0f The Pews.
They Teach Christ Will Marry All The Church? "False Doctrine".
I'm amazed people believe and teach what man says
instead? Because it feels good instead of scripture and what Jesus Himself said.
And you don't think Jesus has a problem with that?
Rev 19:7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
Jesus is the Christ. And He is the Lamb. In the analogy of the church as the bride of Christ, Jesus Christ is the bridegroom and the church is the bride.
The Bible compares the relationship between Jesus Christ and the church as that of a bride and groom.
In Eph 5:22-33 the relationship of a husband and wife is compared to the relationship between Jesus Christ and His church.
Pandora, the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 does not refer to the rapture of the church. The church is not found in Matthew chapters 24 and 25 although some theologians think that Matthew 24:4-8 speaks of general signs occurring in the church-age and that the Tribuation begins at verse 9.
There have been various interpretations of the parable of the virgins, but the setting of the Parable is when Jesus Christ returns to establish His kingdom. It is not a reference to His return for the church which is a separate and prior event. The context in which the parable is presented is best understood as a judgment on living Jews when Christ returns. Refer to Matthew 24: 3, 14, 27, 30, 39, 44, and 51.
In Jesus' time, the wedding custom was that the bridegroom would return from the home of the bride in a procession toward his own home for the wedding banquet. In the parable, Jesus returns from heaven to the earth with His bride, the church. The parable concerns the readiness of Israel when Christ returns with the church. The Jews will be among the invited guests to share in the banquet - the Millennium. But preparation is necessary. Not all Jews will be spiritually prepared for Jesus' return. Those who survive the Tribulation will include both Jews and Gentiles. Among both groups will be believers and non-believers. The judgment of the nations when Jesus returns is spoken of in Matthew 25:32-46. Some will go into the kingdom and others won't.
The church is also called the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:12-31). Jesus Christ is the head of the body. Though the rapture of the church is not in view in this passage, the principle is that the whole body will be taken up into heaven. Not just a part of the body.
For reasons already given in post #21, the rapture of the church will be before the Tribulation.
The bride has made herself ready by means of having gone through the judgment seat of Christ which took place following the rapture of the church (another reason why the entire church has to be raptured) in which the works of every church-age believer are to be evaluated for the purpose of eternal rewards (1 Cor 3:9-15; 2 Cor 5:10).
Quote:
2. Matt.25 There is no guessing here Mike:
Jesus said "The Bridegroom" comes to take The Wise Virgins "INTO THE WEDDING".
No, it refers to the wedding feast which follows the wedding and to which many guests are invited. (Matt 25:10). The wedding feast is a reference to the Millennial kingdom.
Quote:
There is nothing ever said in Scripture as "The Marriage 0f ((LAMB))" being a Jewish Wedding.
You do know this is not a regular earthly wedding.
The point is that an analogy to the Jewish wedding custom of the day is being made with regard to the rapture of the Church.
Quote:
3. Ephs.5:22 the Anology Paul gives IS OF
(HUSBANDS & WIVES) BEING LIKE CHRIST & THE CHURCH.
NOT, (THE CHURCH) BEING (LIKE) HUSBANDS & WIVES.
- "husband is head of the wife (AS) ALSO CHRIST IS HEAD OF THE CHURCH" - V.23
I was very clear about what I said Pandora. And that was 'In Eph 5:22-33 the relationship of a husband and wife is compared to the relationship between Jesus Christ and His church.'
Quote:
This scripture doesn't say:
Christ is the head of The Church (AS) also the husband is head of the wife.
"Christ Is The (SAVIOR) 0f The Body" - v.23
Christ Is Not The Husband 0f The Body. There's Been NO Wedding Yet!
You are mixing metaphors implying that I did the same. I specifically stated that the rapture was not in view in 1 Cor 12:12-31 My point is that in the rapture, part of the body (the church) is not going to be amputated to be left behind while the rest of the body (the church) is taken into heaven.
And by 'church' I am referring to every person during the dispensation of the church who has placed his faith in Jesus Christ for eternal life. 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. The church-age believer is a new creation. A new spiritual species.
I think I've made it clear that the rapture of the church is pre-tribulational. If what I've already said isn't clear to readers I doubt that anything else I say would change anyones mind. Therefore I don't think there's much point in continuing with this.
See posts #21 and 28.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-02-2012 at 06:29 PM..
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