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Old 07-02-2012, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr5150 View Post
My focus is on the concept of "destroy both soul and body".
Thoughts.
No Resurrection.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:49 PM
 
Location: NC
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Right, Jerwade. God bless and peace.
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Old 07-02-2012, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
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Still at work, so not at a place to compare root words of Hebrew and Greek....

....But, It was said of Adam and Eve that the day they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that they would surely die.

Did they eat? Yes. Did scripture make sure they would surely die? Yes. Were they annihilated at that point? No. Adam lived for centuries.

Don't have time or space here to go on, but there are plenty of other examples where the word "death" is used but doesn't mean annihilation (dead in trespasses and sins, reckon yourself dead, etc, etc).

I think I am lining up with Mike on this one.
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:56 PM
 
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"Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God."

"The wicked will remain wicked they will have no understanding but the wise will have it."

"The Lords power will be known to His servants but to His enemies His wrath."

"Whoever disobeys the son will not see life but must endure the wrath of God."

"Everyone shall be taught by God."
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:13 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Mathew 10:28 means that the descendants of pagans believed in an eternal river of regret in Hades... the whole point that Revelations writer makes the lake of fire infinite is that he was a sadistic loser and also that many psychopaths would be quick to point out that if the wages of sin is death and not eternal torment than they are happy to sin. So the Christians seemed to have moved to the basic idea of hell being infinite so it could be a better threat. Still, it is just as easy to explain (as the Hindus do with their ideas about reincarnation) that Hell is not worth it because no amount of joy in this world can balance the torment that will be spent there, and then annihilation.
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Old 07-03-2012, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The beast and the false prophet, both human, will have been in the lake of fire for a thousand years before Satan joins them there. It is then said that they will be tormented forever and ever (Rev 19:20 with Rev 20:10). That shows that annihilationism is a false teaching.

Matthew 10:28 by the way also makes it clear that the soul survives the death of the body.
Yes, that proves annihilationism is a false teaching.
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Old 07-03-2012, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
..."...The beast and the false prophet, both human, will have been in the lake of fire for a thousand years before Satan joins them there. It is then said that they will be tormented forever and ever (Rev 19:20 with Rev 20:10). That shows that annihilationism is a false teaching.

Matthew 10:28 by the way also makes it clear that the soul survives the death of the body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, that proves annihilationism is a false teaching.
Wrong again Mike and Finn. It specificlly states that >>>"THEY"<<< >>>who?<<< >>>"THEY"<<< >>>who's the "THEY"?<<< >>>the beast...his angels...and the false prophet<<< .

NO WHERE does it say that the dead, wicked souls will be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire. It says the dead, wicked souls will be thrown in the LOF to PERISH...as in ANNIHILATED.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him, will not PERISH, but have eternal life....what part of that do you not understand ?
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Old 07-03-2012, 07:55 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Jesus is quoted as saying: Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (from the NASB)

My focus is on the concept of "destroy both soul and body". It really doesn't concern me what the actual word for hell means.

Destroy (in case one is unclear of the concept):

1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. to put an end to; extinguish.
3. to kill; slay.
4. to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
5. to defeat completely.

Destroy | Define Destroy at Dictionary.com

Thoughts.
Well, we should first identify what soul here means...Is it the same soul as mentioned in Genesis when it says that Yehovaw breathed into Adams nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul?...You can look at it this way, a soul CAN be immortal, but only if Yehovaw grants it, He is the One holding the entire universe together, seeing this concept in such a way that nothing exists outside of Him...Now is this concept literal or figurtive?...If Literal, then the entire universe operates within the corpus of Yehovaw, like an atom, (and if like an atom then are there other such atoms?...Is this where the theory of a parallell universe comes into thought?)...Without digressing, What was Adam BEFORE Yehovaw blew into his nostrils the breath of life?...The opposite of a living soul has to be a non-living soul or a dead soul, doesn't it?...So, if that be the case then what is a soul?...The breath of life cannot be the soul for it was the breath of life that caused the soul to be a living thing...So, what is this breath of life?...Could it be spirit?...Could the soul be a simile for individual identity?...What gives us our individual identity?...Is it our brain as a whole or a specific part of it that gives it it's uniqueness?...No two computers are exactly alike, even within the same model or brand...Each one is unique in the way it's program operates...Spirit is a simile for life...Should those words within that verse have been translated a different way for conveyance?...Or, as is known, that Mathew is so replite with Hebraisms and Hebraic thought that it cannot simply be translated into another language and simply be understood but it takes a knowledge of Hebraic thought and metaphor to understand what is being conveyed?...So, CAN Yahovaw destroy the body and the soul (Individual Identity?)?...Nowhere does it state the He destroys the spirit...The spirit of Yehovaw is what He blew into the nostrils of Adam to bring him to life and it is this that Yehovaw can take away...It is this that is eternal because it is of Yehovaw Himself...He would be destroying a part of Himself if He could destroy the spirit...The soul and the body are a different matter all-together...According to Judaic thought the Day of The Resurrection is ONLY for the Righteous, if this be true, then what of the un-rigtheous, what happens to them?...The body is dead along with the soul until Yehovaw breaths life into it once again to make it a living soul on the Day of Resurrection...Now, here is a thought on Hell...If the body is destructable and the soul is destructable, but the spirit of Yehovaw is not (I mean that which brings life to a soul and body), then would Yehovaw not be placing a part of Himself into Hell along with the un-righteous soul that He casts there?...A man's spirit is not individual, however his soul and body are...Our bodies function due to bio electricity and even after death it maintains for a period, could the breath of life be a metaphor for this bio electricity?...Our bodies are referred to in similitude as tents that hold the soul and spirit...The bio electricity cause these two to function...Take the bio electricity away and both cease to function...We know that your 'label' is 'Mr5150', however, this is not your individual identity...Your bio electricity gives you life, it does not identify you, for we all have this bio electricity...Your body does not identify you, for you could be an exact duplicate of someone else, like an identical twin...Both look exactly the same from the outside, both have the same bio electricity that cause both to function...However, not both have the same soul (identity)...They both operate differently, think differently, have different desires...They are both individual and unique souls...The body can indeed be utterly destroyed as can the soul, however, the bio electricity cannot...Energy cannot be destroyed, it can however be converted to other forms or substances...So, again I ask, 'What is a soul?'...

Last edited by Richard1965; 07-03-2012 at 08:39 AM..
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:19 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Wrong again Mike and Finn. It specificlly states that >>>"THEY"<<< >>>who?<<< >>>"THEY"<<< >>>who's the "THEY"?<<< >>>the beast...his angels...and the false prophet<<< .

NO WHERE does it say that the dead, wicked souls will be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire. It says the dead, wicked souls will be thrown in the LOF to PERISH...as in ANNIHILATED.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him, will not PERISH, but have eternal life....what part of that do you not understand ?
gee, Verna, I wonder if he actually read those verses that he listed?...Because I read something different...They were both thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, then another Angel laid hold on Satan and threw him into the abyss for a thousand years...I do not see anywhere in those verses where it says that the other two where there for a thousand years before the beast was thrown into the abyss...

Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with this one the false prophet doing signs before it, by which he led astray those having received the mark of the beast, and those worshiping its image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword of the One sitting on the horse, the sword having gone forth from His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of Heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain on his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

Well, there goes the theory that after death one goes straight to heaven or hell......


Look here:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one having part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And whenever the thousand years are ended, Satan will be set loose out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and he will go to mislead the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them in war, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

Who, in the old testament, was given that simile?...

Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the land and encircled the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire from God came down out of Heaven and burned them down.
Rev 20:10 And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

Now, here it states that the beast and false prophet were there a thousand years before being joined wtih Satan...However, it does not state anything here regarding the un-righteous...So, it is unreasonable to use these two verses to refute anihilationism...One must look elsewhere in the Scriptures...Aside, In Judaic thought the Day of Resurrection in ONLY for the righteous of Yehovaw...So, if this be true, what of the un-righteous?...what happens with them if the Day of resurrection is not for them but only for the Righteous?...And the fact that, as stated above that 'But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were ended.'...And this thousand year reign was for who ONLY?...'the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand'...So, the rest of the dead did not live again until when?...The thousand years were up...Gee, I thought one went straight to Heaven or Hell when one died...Gee, does the bible really mean to tell me that I was wrong all this time believing what I was TOLD???...Maybe then, just maybe...The P-A-R-A-B-L-E of The Rich Man and Lazarus has a completely different message...Maybe, just maybe, it is a prophetic P-A-R-A-B-L-E relating the change that was about to take place between Israel and the Gentiles?...Anyway, those are my thoughts...

Last edited by Richard1965; 07-03-2012 at 08:38 AM..
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
But you just say these things without any explaination or scriptural justification. As if it is just understood. One must back up one's opinion with cites and explaination. I quoted Matt 10:28 and said take it at face value. Using generally understood definitions of the Engish language. Nowhere in Matt 10:28 does it speak of the "annihilation of sin".

Can you explain how you arrived at your conclusion in the light of Matt 10:28? I see nothing in Matt 10:28 that speaks of the "annihilation of sin". Just the destroying of body and Soul. God Bless and Peace!
Correct. It specifically says "body and soul".
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