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Old 07-05-2012, 03:32 PM
 
Location: southern california
50,247 posts, read 47,579,412 times
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no more than martin luther king & his followers, high jacked civil rights and made it an AA rights movement. no doubt w/o paul, christianity would have died a quick death as a unpopular jewish sect.
read "left hand of God" by rabbi lerner.
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Old 07-05-2012, 04:31 PM
 
2,278 posts, read 914,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
no more than martin luther king & his followers, high jacked civil rights and made it an AA rights movement. no doubt w/o paul, christianity would have died a quick death as a unpopular jewish sect.
read "left hand of God" by rabbi lerner.
Wow, you mean The Gospel
The Apostle Peter took to the Gentiles who Believed
by which God Himself gave The Gentiles The Holy Spirit as He did The Apostles? - Acts 15:7,8

Would Have Died Without 0ne man?
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Old 07-05-2012, 04:40 PM
 
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ancient warrior - I am done arguing about the Galatians / Acts point. Believe what you want, the passages don't unnerve me in the least.

I have no idea the point you're trying to make with the 2 Corinthians verse.

And I'm also not bothered by the Mt. 5 / Gal. 5 comparison. Again, like above, it's only an issue if you're pre-determined to make it one. But alas, I have better things to do than post a long-winded NT theology essay to someone who's made up his mind and just wants to push buttons on a message board.
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Old 07-05-2012, 04:59 PM
 
Location: kind of North of the middle of nowhere, FL
3,006 posts, read 1,621,943 times
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to the OP
Back when I was a Christian, I had no use for Paul. I certainly have no use for him now. Did he hijack Christianity? Absolutely.
Consider this: Jesus=Spirituality and a personal realtionship with one's God
Paul=Religion, dogma, rules, legalism
I have also looked at the Paulinity vs Christianity arguments. Clearly, the love and acceptance that Jesus had is not evident in Paul's judgemental and limited theology. We should always, regardless of our faith or lack of, always endeavor to be more like Christ and less like Paul.
In addition, we do not see any evidence at all of Paul being an "enlightened" or even "knowledgable" teacher.
ANyone can make claims to be called by god. I saw someone downtown, wearing rags with a sign that said "ask me about Jesus" of course, he was homeless, passed out drunk, maybe his name was even Paul..... who knows or cares? Fact is , any lunatic can write anything and claim anything. Paul's writings demonstrate no "knowledge" but they certainly demonstrate the existence of mental disorder. Maybe we should look at Paul's vision and teaching in light of what they really were.....the result of a neuropsych disorder.
I have always wondered, had Paul been sane, who then would have become the next big advocate for Jesus' teachings, (not that Paul followed any of those anyway) But who would have stepped up, or would anyone have even bothered?
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Lubec, ME
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Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
ANyone can make claims to be called by god.

False.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by michael_atw View Post
False.
Actually that was about the only true statement in his entire post.
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
149 posts, read 50,470 times
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Quote:
Originally posted by LargeKingCat

Paul=Religion, dogma, rules, legalism
Hmmmm.

The gospel of Paul is the gospel of God's lavish grace you read of in Romans, and certainly not the gospel of legalism, dogma, and rules. In fact, it is the very opposite. The gospel of Paul (Uncircumcision) proclaims the idea of righteousness apart from the law, and grace through faith, as opposed to works (religion). I think someone has been pulling your leg, and has given you bogus information concerning our brother Paul.

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, NOT of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:01 PM
 
Location: kind of North of the middle of nowhere, FL
3,006 posts, read 1,621,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_atw View Post
False.
I recall a case when I was doing my internship in a state run mental instituiom. I worked with chronic long term cases. One was a rare instance of what we at the time called "psychogenc fugue" but has now been changed to fall under the category of dissociative disorders.
What happens is that a person suddenly goes a radical personality change, sometimes even as to change their name, in this case, we had a male patient who had worked as a decorative welder, one morning woke up, smashed all of his sculptures saying that they were "graven images" and began walking in circles reaching his hand up in the air towards the sky....when we asked him, he said he was "praying and touching the hand of god" It is not considered a psychotic disorder because the person retains memory of who they were and is still in touch with the reality around them, but we also have to consider that inn this case, hallucinations were occuring, and we had to look for underlying rationale, such as focal point seizures or trauma,.
Now think about it, someone with a focal seizure disorder has a triggered seizure, perhaps from a fall or lookinng too closely at the sun or perhaps someone wearing red walks by, and this is someone who already has a known degree of anger issues, he sees this bright light (Hallucination) then undergoes this radical change, changes his name from Saul to Paul, then declares himself an Apostle of God, and goes on this radical preaching spree and says whatever he wants and since he already has this bully reputation as a persecuter of Christians, people fear him more than respect him, and since he is speaking on behalf of a new and very small cultish religion, then who can question if he is theologically correct or not?
What if he had been sane? none of this ever would have happened.
Throughout the history of the world we have seen a number of enlightened teachers, the Buddha, Jesus the CHrist, St Francis of Assissi, Paramahansa Yogananda, countless monks, nuns and even in our own lifetime the Dalai lama and some might suggest Pope Jooh Paul II. But nowhere on the pantheon of enlightened teachers is Paul. Why ? because his message was not one of a person who had knowledge, enlightenment, answers. He never made that long arduous apprenticeship or took a path towards truth.
On a side note, we know just how influential Jesus really was before Paul came along. Paul claims never to have met Jesus, yet Paul was in jeruselum by all timelines during Jesus' 3 year ministry. Yet he never took up the act f persecution, never attended the crucifixion, and never seemd to cross paths with this "king of kings". One would think that if Jesus HAD BEEN so influential during his lifetime, then Paul would have at least heard of him and maybe taken notice. More likely Jesus following was very small, restricted to those most in need, and most reviled, including tax collectors and hookers. No one at the time recorded or mentioned anything about him, and scholars agree that Paul never met jesus in person during the three years of Jesus' ministry. Jesus was already dead and his cult of followers struggling to share information and ideas with each other when Paul had his supposed vision, one that as shown above has a medical explanation.
I do not for one minute believe that Paul was visited by Jesus, or that Paul was teaching something revealed to him as such. I do not believe that Paul had anything past his own ego and issues at stake, and I do not believe that Paul is someone that I would look to as a spiritual teacher, especially because there are so many better ones out there. I think the direction that orthodox Christianity took at Paul's direction and due to the urging of the early bishops has helped Hijack whatever message of enlightenment and Peace and Love that Jesus taught and has now fallen into a mess that keeps sensible people like myself either at a Buddhist brunch or an reason and science (atheist) gathering on Sunday mornings, should we desire or need some social circle.
es Paul hijacked it, and left us with Paulinity, CHristianity as defined by Paul. I remember at my uncles funeral last year someone read something written by Paul and then said "The word of God" OH Please Say the "Word of Paul" and do not confuse Paul with the Christ concept, or anything divine. And certainly hopefully any omnipotent god, should it exist outside of our limited human realm of knowledge, would be nothing like Paul, and nothing Paul wrote indicates that he ever had any touch with it anyway. Yes, people claim to be apostles of god all the time. The mental institutions are full of them. I have worked with them and observed them and endeavored to help them when I can. Believe me, they are real.
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:05 AM
 
10,687 posts, read 5,177,398 times
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Dear LargeKingCat,
The difference between your version of Saul/Paul and the welder is that the normal leaders of the church in Jerusalem, Peter, James and John and the others saw Paul as very rational. Not only that, but Paul vouchsafed his apostleship by miracles (even if you don't believe in them, they did occur) in the historically accurate book we call "Acts."

Also, your understanding that the reason Paul is not listed in the line of "enlightened teachers" being "he never made the long arduous apprenticeship or took a path towards truth" is not correct. Paul was a Pharisee and was trained for years under Gamaliel. You don't ascend to the level Paul did as a Pharisee just because someone likes you. He studied very hard to attain to that level.

But I can still be friends even if we don't agree.
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:07 AM
 
10,687 posts, read 5,177,398 times
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Originally Posted by Illuin View Post
Hmmmm.

The gospel of Paul is the gospel of God's lavish grace you read of in Romans, and certainly not the gospel of legalism, dogma, and rules. In fact, it is the very opposite. The gospel of Paul (Uncircumcision) proclaims the idea of righteousness apart from the law, and grace through faith, as opposed to works (religion). I think someone has been pulling your leg, and has given you bogus information concerning our brother Paul.

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, NOT of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Excellent Post Illuin!
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