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I don't agree with most of what Daniel has written this thread, but I also don't believe the "men" in Genesis 18 are standard, normal, mortal, non-supernatural everyday men. There is at minimum a theophanic element there, and possibly angels too.
Are you seriously still clinging to your strange idiosyncratic interpretation of the Genesis 18-19 story?
These same "men" are called "messengers" - which is the Hebrew term that would later be translated, in Greek, as "angels".
The two messengers came to Sedom [Sodom] at sunset,
as Lot was sitting at the gate of Sedom.
When Lot saw them, he arose to meet them and bowed low,
brow to the ground
and said:
Now pray, my lords,
pray turn aside to your servant's house,
spend the night, wash your feet;
(starting-early) you may go on your way.
(Gen. 19:1-2, SB)
The language (and situation) is almost exactly similar to Abraham's encounter with the "men" and his extension of hospitality to them. The same thing occurs with Lot - even though he is unaware of their "divine" status, he offers them hospitality and is spared because of this (just as Abraham is blessed with a child because of his hospitality to the "men". And just in case the point is lost - just as in the Abraham section the reader is made aware that Yahweh is among the "men", the identity of the two "men" is made known at the beginning of the story: "messengers".
Later in the story, it reverts to calling them men, and their divine status is finally revealed to Lot. In trying to protect them from the inhabitants of the city he states:
Pray, brothers, do not be so wicked!
Now pray, I have two daughters who have never known a man,
pray let me bring them out to you, and you may deal with them however seems good in your eyes;
only to these men do nothing,
for they have, after all, come under the shadow of my roof-beam!
(19:8)
The inhabitants of the city press against the door and the "men" reveal their power:
But the men put out their hand and brought Lot in to them,
into the house, and shut the door.
And the men who were at the entrance to the house, they struck with dazzling-light - (all men) great and small,
so that they were unable to find the entrance.
And just in case their status is still in question to readers, the text goes on to reveal why they are "messenger" status"
The men said to Lot:
Whom else have you here - a son-in-law, sons, daughters?
Bring anyone whom you have in the city out of this place!
For we are about to bring ruin on this place,
for how great is their outcry to YHWH!
And YHWH has sent us to bring it to ruin.
(19:12-13)
This mission was hinted at in the previous chapter, when Yahweh speaks to Abraham:
The men arose from there, and looked down upon the face of Sedom,
and Avraham went with them to escort them.
Now YHWH had said (to himself):
Shall I cover up from Avraham what I am about to do?...
So YHWH said:
The outcry in Sedom and Amora - how great it is!
And their sin - how exceedingly heavy it weighs!
So let me go down and see:
if they have done according to its cry that has come to me -
destruction!
And if not -
I wish to know.
(Gen. 18:16-17, 20-21)
At this point, Yahweh's messengers go to investigate so Yahweh may know what is going on, and we enter the part of the story in which the hospitality of Abraham and Lot to total strangers ("entertaining angels unawares") is contrasted to the extreme inhospitality of the inhabitants of Sodom.
This story is not that difficult to read and comprehend. There are three "men": Yahweh, and his two "messengers" - or "angels" in later tradition. This is so obvious as to not bear explanation.
I don't agree with most of what Daniel has written this thread, but I also don't believe the "men" in Genesis 18 are standard, normal, mortal, non-supernatural everyday men. There is at minimum a theophanic element there, and possibly angels too.
The above post was meant for Eusebius, lest it's placement after yours make you think otherwise, by the way.
Yes, it's quite apparant that the "men" are mortals only in outward appearance. The text very clearly reveals their divine status.
As for Daniel's comments - I will say that the majority of what he has said is quite accurate, at least form a modern biblical studies perspective. It shouldn't be controversial at all, and is pretty standard fare. Considering that he is a degreed Biblical Scholar - I think it's a safe bet that he has studied the subject far more than most people!
The above post was meant for Eusebius, lest it's placement after yours make you think otherwise, by the way.
Yes, it's quite apparant that the "men" are mortals only in outward appearance. The text very clearly reveals their divine status.
As for Daniel's comments - I will say that the majority of what he has said is quite accurate, at least form a modern biblical studies perspective. It shouldn't be controversial at all, and is pretty standard fare. Considering that he is a degreed Biblical Scholar - I think it's a safe bet that he has studied the subject far more than most people!
There is no surety of correctness based upon the number of degrees after one's name.
Case in point: Does Daniel believe God is going to eternally torment anyone? What does Olam/Aion/Aionion mean? Does he believe in annihilation? Does he believe all will be saved? Does he believe in being saved by grace and not by law? Does he believe Christ made salvation possible or that His death actually accomplished our salvation? I could go on and on.
Many degreed theologians have many biblical things wrong.
Tell me, are the wicked men in Sodom only mortal in outward appearance?
Are you seriously still clinging to your strange idiosyncratic interpretation of the Genesis 18-19 story?
These same "men" are called "messengers" - which is the Hebrew term that would later be translated, in Greek, as "angels".
The two messengers came to Sedom [Sodom] at sunset,
as Lot was sitting at the gate of Sedom.
When Lot saw them, he arose to meet them and bowed low,
brow to the ground
and said:
Now pray, my lords,
pray turn aside to your servant's house,
spend the night, wash your feet;
(starting-early) you may go on your way.
(Gen. 19:1-2, SB)
The language (and situation) is almost exactly similar to Abraham's encounter with the "men" and his extension of hospitality to them. The same thing occurs with Lot - even though he is unaware of their "divine" status, he offers them hospitality and is spared because of this (just as Abraham is blessed with a child because of his hospitality to the "men". And just in case the point is lost - just as in the Abraham section the reader is made aware that Yahweh is among the "men", the identity of the two "men" is made known at the beginning of the story: "messengers".
Later in the story, it reverts to calling them men, and their divine status is finally revealed to Lot. In trying to protect them from the inhabitants of the city he states:
Pray, brothers, do not be so wicked!
Now pray, I have two daughters who have never known a man,
pray let me bring them out to you, and you may deal with them however seems good in your eyes;
only to these men do nothing,
for they have, after all, come under the shadow of my roof-beam!
(19:8)
The inhabitants of the city press against the door and the "men" reveal their power:
But the men put out their hand and brought Lot in to them,
into the house, and shut the door.
And the men who were at the entrance to the house, they struck with dazzling-light - (all men) great and small,
so that they were unable to find the entrance.
And just in case their status is still in question to readers, the text goes on to reveal why they are "messenger" status"
The men said to Lot:
Whom else have you here - a son-in-law, sons, daughters?
Bring anyone whom you have in the city out of this place!
For we are about to bring ruin on this place,
for how great is their outcry to YHWH!
And YHWH has sent us to bring it to ruin.
(19:12-13)
This mission was hinted at in the previous chapter, when Yahweh speaks to Abraham:
The men arose from there, and looked down upon the face of Sedom,
and Avraham went with them to escort them.
Now YHWH had said (to himself):
Shall I cover up from Avraham what I am about to do?...
So YHWH said:
The outcry in Sedom and Amora - how great it is!
And their sin - how exceedingly heavy it weighs!
So let me go down and see:
if they have done according to its cry that has come to me -
destruction!
And if not -
I wish to know.
(Gen. 18:16-17, 20-21)
At this point, Yahweh's messengers go to investigate so Yahweh may know what is going on, and we enter the part of the story in which the hospitality of Abraham and Lot to total strangers ("entertaining angels unawares") is contrasted to the extreme inhospitality of the inhabitants of Sodom.
This story is not that difficult to read and comprehend. There are three "men": Yahweh, and his two "messengers" - or "angels" in later tradition. This is so obvious as to not bear explanation.
Are you seriously still clinging to your strange idiosyncratic interpretation of the Genesis 18-19 story?
I mean, really?
The **men** in Sodom wanted to have sex with the two **men** in Lot's home.
The two **men** of the three **men** went to Sodom to scope it out.
Abraham fed the three **men**.
Do angels (spirit beings) really eat food? You nor Daniel still have not supplied me with proof that a spirit eats food, even though he or you said they do.
The same Hebrew word used to describe the three men as men is the same Hebrew word used elsewhere to describe men as, well, you know, men.
Are you seriously still clinging to your strange idiosyncratic interpretation of the Genesis 18-19 story?
I mean, really?
My "strange idiosyncratic interpretation" is the academic consensus (I've never seen a scholar insist they were human) and has been the most common interpretation for thousands of years. The book of Jubilees, dating to before the Common Era, has the very angels themselves describe in the first person their visits to Abraham, Sarah, and Lot. Targum Neophyti of Gen 18:1–2 states, "He lifted up his eyes and behold, three angels in the likeness of men stood in front of him." Qumran's 4Q180 states of the same verses, "the three men who appeared to Abraham at the oaks of Mamre are angels." Pesiqta Rabbati, Bayyom ha-shemini 3, describes angels overthrowing Sodom. Hebrews 13:2 actually refers directly to Abraham and Lot unknowingly entertaining angels. In fact, I defy you to provide a single interpreter from the last 50 years or from antiquity who insisted these beings were not angels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The **men** in Sodom wanted to have sex with the two **men** in Lot's home.
The two **men** of the three **men** went to Sodom to scope it out.
Abraham fed the three **men**.
Do angels (spirit beings) really eat food?
According to Genesis 18.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
You nor Daniel still have not supplied me with proof that a spirit eats food, even though he or you said they do.
The same Hebrew word used to describe the three men as men is the same Hebrew word used elsewhere to describe men as, well, you know, men.
The same Hebrew word is also used to describe God himself. You're getting even more desperate, Eusebius.
My "strange idiosyncratic interpretation" is the academic consensus (I've never seen a scholar insist they were human) and has been the most common interpretation for thousands of years. The book of Jubilees, dating to before the Common Era, has the very angels themselves describe in the first person their visits to Abraham, Sarah, and Lot. Targum Neophyti of Gen 18:1–2 states, "He lifted up his eyes and behold, three angels in the likeness of men stood in front of him." Qumran's 4Q180 states of the same verses, "the three men who appeared to Abraham at the oaks of Mamre are angels." Pesiqta Rabbati, Bayyom ha-shemini 3, describes angels overthrowing Sodom. Hebrews 13:2 actually refers directly to Abraham and Lot unknowingly entertaining angels. In fact, I defy you to provide a single interpreter from the last 50 years or from antiquity who insisted these beings were not angels.
According to Genesis 18.
The same Hebrew word is also used to describe God himself. You're getting even more desperate, Eusebius.
They would be right if they were right. But, sigh, they are not. The Bible says they were men.
God is spirit. He is not a man. His Son is a man, "the Man, Christ Jesus."
There is no surety of correctness based upon the number of degrees after one's name.
Case in point: Does Daniel believe God is going to eternally torment anyone? What does Olam/Aion/Aionion mean? Does he believe in annihilation? Does he believe all will be saved? Does he believe in being saved by grace and not by law? Does he believe Christ made salvation possible or that His death actually accomplished our salvation? I could go on and on.
Many degreed theologians have many biblical things wrong.
I'll make your statement more honest: "Many degreed theologians disagree with uncritical religious dogmas." Surprise surprise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Tell me, are the wicked men in Sodom only mortal in outward appearance?
No one is saying that ish always means "angels." This is a ludicrous strawman.
Uncritical religious dogmas? You believe that what Christ accomplished in His death burial and resurrection is not critical?
Of course no one is saying "ish" always means angels. But you can't make that statement as if it answers to my statement to disprove what I said which
is that ish describes the ***men*** that came to Abraham and also the ***men*** of Sodom.
They would be right if they were right. But, sigh, they are not. The Bible says they were men.
God is spirit. He is not a man. His Son is a man, "the Man, Christ Jesus."
In other words, "Nu-uh!"
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