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Old 07-08-2012, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,017 posts, read 8,606,126 times
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So said my Pastor.

You don't get people saved by giving them the Four Spiritual Laws and telling them they're bound for Hell unless they repent and turn to Jesus.

Nope, said my Pastor. You get people saved by showing them the love of Christ. You get people saved by being a friend, a neighbor. You get people saved by doing stuff with them. You like to fish? Fine. Ask them to go fishing. You like to shop? Ask them to go shopping. (aimed at the ladies, I suspect-I hate shopping).

They already know you're a Christian. When they ask questions, speak the answer. They may well listen.

Yep, that's what my Pastor said this morning.

I agree with my Pastor.
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Old 07-08-2012, 04:39 PM
 
3,378 posts, read 2,161,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
You get people saved by showing them the love of Christ. You get people saved by being a friend, a neighbor.
I agree with this, but I want to add something here. Please, please for the sake of your own faith be genuine. If you are going to be a friend, to be a place of safety, strength, and comfort for others, including non-believers, do it because it is the right thing to do, because it is who you are, not to win souls. There is absolutely nothing more damaging to the reputation of Christianity, including fools like Fred Phelps, than Christians who will befriend and support you only as long as they think you are either one of them or about to convert. Christians who turn on people, particularly when they excuse it with religion, do more damage than anything else. Ulterior motives come out in the end, and are never easy for someone to get past in the future.

Don't be a friend because you might win souls, be a friend because that is Christ-like, and let the rest happen as it may.

-NoCapo

P.S. 5150, not implying that you would advocate this behavior, just that I have seen it so many times.
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Old 07-08-2012, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
8,168 posts, read 7,174,964 times
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Ro 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?


I understand where you and your pastor are coming from, and as you can see there is certain textural evidence for such a belief. However, you have all kinds of texts, including many statements from Jesus warning about eternal damnation for all unbelievers. We also have Jesus command that, in order to make disciples, we should teach them all things, whatsoever I have commanded you, and there can be no doubt that includes Jesus many warnings about hell. It would be deceptive to not tell people God's warnings about hell and eternal damnation, or denying them. Therefore, its probably best to fully give witness all things, as Jesus instructed. Otherwise, we are the ones at fault.
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:04 PM
 
Location: NC
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I believe that people will come when they realize they are lost and in need of a Savior. In addition to being a friend and showing agape love, listen and pray that God opens their hearts to receive the good news. They will see your example and see the light of Jesus in you. Sometimes it may take awhile and they may have to go through some things to see that Jesus is the way and their Savior. That's how it was with my sister. Warnings about an eternal hell are not scriptural. God bless and peace.
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,017 posts, read 8,606,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
I agree with this, but I want to add something here. Please, please for the sake of your own faith be genuine. If you are going to be a friend, to be a place of safety, strength, and comfort for others, including non-believers, do it because it is the right thing to do, because it is who you are, not to win souls. There is absolutely nothing more damaging to the reputation of Christianity, including fools like Fred Phelps, than Christians who will befriend and support you only as long as they think you are either one of them or about to convert. Christians who turn on people, particularly when they excuse it with religion, do more damage than anything else. Ulterior motives come out in the end, and are never easy for someone to get past in the future.

Don't be a friend because you might win souls, be a friend because that is Christ-like, and let the rest happen as it may.

-NoCapo

P.S. 5150, not implying that you would advocate this behavior, just that I have seen it so many times.
Yea, it really bugs me when people only befreind others as an evangelism tool. My Pastor mentioned we should be real friends regrdless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
Ro 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that Godís kindness leads you toward repentance?


I understand where you and your pastor are coming from, and as you can see there is certain textural evidence for such a belief. However, you have all kinds of texts, including many statements from Jesus warning about eternal damnation for all unbelievers. We also have Jesus command that, in order to make disciples, we should teach them all things, whatsoever I have commanded you, and there can be no doubt that includes Jesus many warnings about hell. It would be deceptive to not tell people God's warnings about hell and eternal damnation, or denying them. Therefore, its probably best to fully give witness all things, as Jesus instructed. Otherwise, we are the ones at fault.
Good counsel.

But I and my Pastor and many others have come to realize that "everyone" in North America knows about Hell. The threat of Hell is not news nor is it effective otherwise. As it is written: You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. (Honey in this case is the love of Christ-not a sugar coated Gospel) My Pastor added that no one is going to spend eternity with God in Heaven (and on the New Earth) without accepting Jesus. And yes that is part of the package.
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:11 PM
 
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The good news of the gospel stands in contrast to the bad news of the unbeliever's standing before God. Before a person realizes his need to be saved, and his need for a Savior, he needs to know what it is that he needs to be saved from. If he doesn't know that he is lost he will not understand his need to come to God through Jesus Christ in order to be saved. This is a lost and dying world and we are all born already under condemnation. A person needs to understand that he is lost and is unable to do anything about his helpless condition. He needs to know that the wages of sin is death - eternity in the lake of fire. He needs to know that he must be born again. Now his lost condition is not good news and so is not the gospel. But it needs to be understood.

The good news of the gospel is that God provided a Savior who did something about our hopeless and helpless condition. The good news is that Jesus Christ who is God became man and paid the penalty for our sins so that anyone who simply believes in/on Him has eternal life.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

The unbeliever must be made aware of his lost condition before God in order to appreciate the good news that God did something about it and that he need only trust in Christ and His finished work on the cross in order to have eternal life in the presence of God.
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:23 PM
 
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I don`t agree with you or your Pastor ....... Jesus said in Luke 13:2-5.....``Suppose you that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans , because they suffered such things?.... I tell you , Nay; but , except you repent , you will all likewise perish....... Or the eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and shew them, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwell in Jerusalem? I tell you Nay, but , except you repent, you will all likewise perish.....``....... So then all those people who are sinners who go fishing and shopping and they were sinners above all people ..... Jesus said ...I tell you ...Nay, except you repent , you will all likewise perish.
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:45 PM
 
3,378 posts, read 2,161,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
The threat of Hell is not news nor is it effective otherwise.
I know I am kind of stomping about ya'lls forum, but I wanted to also point out that I am not sure that a relationship based on fear is worth anything to God anyway. I mean, at least the understanding I had of God was that fear of God or belief to avoid consequences was not sufficient for salvation. "Even the demons believe and tremble...", right? I am not sure that "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" style witnessing is able to bring about the desired result anyway.

Speaking as a relatively staunch atheist, who was an equally staunch Christian, the best Christians can do is to treat me with kindness and respect. It won't change my mind, but at least it won't hinder my decision if God should choose to change it. Frankly speaking, as divine intervention is the only way I would return to the faith, the best thing Christians can do is to be loving, Christ-like people and let God handle the changing of hearts and minds.

This doesn't mean that you should change your doctrine to suit me, but it is sort of a pearls before swine situation. Love, acceptance, support, and compassion are things that everyone appreciates. Hand those things out first, and I think you will find more people willing to listen if God moves in them. And if God never moves in them, you haven't lost anything, you have followed the example of the founder of your faith, right?

-NoCapo
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,017 posts, read 8,606,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
I don`t agree with you or your Pastor ....... Jesus said in Luke 13:2-5.....``Suppose you that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans , because they suffered such things?.... I tell you , Nay; but , except you repent , you will all likewise perish....... Or the eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and shew them, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwell in Jerusalem? I tell you Nay, but , except you repent, you will all likewise perish.....``....... So then all those people who are sinners who go fishing and shopping and they were sinners above all people ..... Jesus said ...I tell you ...Nay, except you repent , you will all likewise perish.
Where did I say one does not mention repentance. You missed my Pastors point. Show the love of Jesus first. Then they will listen.

Yell at them for the need to repent. And people turn away.

So how many people have you won for Christ thru the fear of Hell?

Consider this. Real life. My Son (saved), Dtr-in-law (unsaved) and our wonderful grand daughter are coming to stay with us for a month next Teusday. Would it be better to tell my dtr-in-law about hell and her need to repent or just show the love of Jesus and let her ask questions in due time?

Last edited by Mr5150; 07-08-2012 at 06:10 PM..
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
8,168 posts, read 7,174,964 times
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The law in all its fullness has to be taught, otherwise people will delude themselves into thinking that they don't deserve punishment or hell. This seems to be what Jesus was fighting against, since self righteousness was common 2000 years ago as it is today. Few people are walking around thinking "I deserve to be punished in hell forever" But Jesus made it clear that all are sinners and all need Jesus and His righteousness to be saved.
 
Mt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’
Mt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

1Jn 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

These statements alone are enought to condemn. It is just as Paul said:
Ro 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;

But most people don't think of themselves in this condition, that is damned as a sinner. So this has to be taught and explained.
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