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Did God predestinate man to sin and fall? Was what happened all according to the will of God? Does God actually control man so that man will sin? If man is controlled thusly is man any better then an automation? Does being made into the image and likeness of God require man to be disobedient, sin, and fall?
According to most people who believe in the salvation of all this is exactly what God planned before He ever created man on the earth. They believe God created Adam with sin indwelling him, and because he had sin indwelling him God set him up to fail. They believe even though God commanded Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil Adam could not obey the voice of God, that Adam had to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil because God actually planned for Adam to do this.
Is this really what happened in the garden? Did God really plan it all out this way, setting man up to fail so that man would be disobedient and fall into sin. Does this sound like a holy, righteous, loving God to you?
Well if that is not what happened, just what did happen in the garden? Why did man fail to obey the voice of God and fall into sin and death?
Let's start at the beginning.
Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Many believe that this is speaking of how natural man was created.
They believe that God took dust from the ground, breathed His spirit into the dust and that this union of dust and spirit is the make up of man who is then called a living soul.
But is that what God said?
Let’s look closely at this scripture.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground.
It says plainly here that God formed MAN of the dust of the ground before He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and before MAN became a living soul.
There are 3 steps spoken of here in this verse. The first step is the formation of the biological man.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground
The second step is the breath of life being breathed into the biological man.
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
Breath here is the Hebrew word n\eshamah which means spirit and is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which carries the weight of a woman in travail.
What God was doing here was birthing Christ in the biological man.
The third step is what man BECAME.
and man became a living soul.
Man was NOT created a living soul, man BECAME a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 tells us the story of man, how he was created and how he BECAME a living soul.
Genesis 2:8-3:24 is the explanation of how Adam BECAME a living soul.
Genesis 2:8
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Note that it is the MAN that God had formed that was put in the garden, NOT the living soul. The living soul is that which man BECAME upon his disobedience.
Which is what 1 Corinthians 15:45 is pointing out.
And so it is written, The first man Adam BECAME a living soul.
1 Corinthians 15 is not talking about the creation of man, it is talking about the resurrection of man from the DEAD.
And we know that Adam did not die until he disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
1 Corinthians 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
It was upon Adam's disobedience that Adam BECAME a living soul.
And once Adam BECAME a living soul he was returned to the dust from whence he was taken.
Genesis 3:23
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Romans 5:19
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
If you look up the word disobedience in that scripture it mean failure to hear properly or hearing a miss.
This in and of itself is NOT a sin, but it can lead to sin. Adam's failure to hear properly or understand (one has to hear in order to understand) is that which led him to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil/sin.
So how did this come about?
Genesis 3:1-6
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
1 Timothy 2:13-14
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Eve being deceived by the serpent ate and gave unto Adam and he ate also.
Who is the serpent? To many the serpent is nothing but mans flesh or mans carnal mind, and is not a spiritual being.
But can this be true?
It was not the serpent that gave unto Adam and caused Adam to eat, it was the woman who did this. So unless the woman is mans flesh or carnal mind the serpent cannot be mans flesh or mans carnal mind.
The people of the old testament, like many today, also believed that Satan was in reference to mans flesh. They knew nothing or very little of the spiritual realm. Everything they wrote and believed was based on the natural. This ancient ignorance (as my good brother mystic would say, only he reverses it) about our flesh being the devil or Satan was exposed to be just what it was, ignorance of the spiritual realm. When Jesus Christ came on the scene He exposed the devil for what he was, the old serpent, and it has nothing to do with our flesh.
Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Now why did Jesus speak this parable? Who is the enemy that sowed the tares?
Most who believe in the salvation of all believe it was God who sowed the tares within man. Can this be correct? Is God his own enemy? Or the enemy of man?
So why then did Jesus speak this parable?
Matthew 13:34-35
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
This parable is a spiritual lesson that was kept secret from our ancestors.
Matthew 13:37-43
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
If God sowed the tares as so many of those who believe in the salvation of all believe, does that not make God the wicked one? does that not make God the devil? After all does Jesus not say that the wicked one, who is the devil sowed the tares.
When did God become the enemy of man?
Paul also make a separation or distinction between our flesh and the devil.
Paul tells us to put on the whole armour of God that we might be able to stand against the wiles o the devil and that we wrestle NOT against FLESH and BLOOD (or the life of the flesh) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Obviously the devil is NOT the FLESH or the LIFE OF THE FLESH, for the life of the FLESH is in the blood.
Anyway if people cannot grow past the ignorance of our ancient ancestors they will never be able to over come for they are fighting the wrong battle.
So what happened in the garden?
God sowed good seed, the devil sowed the tares through deceit and the woman ate and was in the transgression and gave unto her husband also.
Now it has been suggested that God did not equip Adam with all the tools necessary but set him up to fail.
First, God NEVER ever gives us a task He has not given us the tools to complete the task.
I don't think anyone will disagree that the garden is a place of testing. Jesus was also tested in a garden.
Now a good teacher does not test their students without first going over all the information first. In other words the teacher has given their students the answers to all the question before giving their students the test.
Let's see if God did this for Adam.
0And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
God equipped Adam with the four rivers
The name of the first is Pison/increase
The name of the second river is Gihon/bursting forth
The name of the third river is Hiddekel/rapid
The fourth river is Euphrates/fruitfulness
Increase bursting forth rapidly to fruitfulness.
In summery Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil NOT the works of God
It was upon Adam's disobedience that Adam BECAME a living soul.
Did Adam disobey when God breathed into him the breath of life?
The Bible says that 1. God formed Adam from the soil and 2. breathed into him and 3. Adam became a living soul.
So I would suggest that "soul" is the result of spirit and flesh coming together.
I'd say God created Adam in such a way that Adam would not be subject to God's law in the garden:
Romans 8:6-8 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, (7) because
the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." (8) Now those
who are in flesh are not able to please God.
God created Adam flesh knowing full well in advance this would cause Adam not to obey His law of "Thou shalt not eat . . . ."
See God chose man to be his children , because God could interact with His creation ........ The demons and fallen angels were being expelled from God interest , so these dark spirit hated the fact that man was chosen ........ So God put man in a garden to prove his obedience and faith , as if man did obey he would be blessed beyond measure , and the adversary would have being removed from the earth and the garden of Eden if victory would have being proved ......In an example As you go to Genesis 23: 18.... What God said about obeying His voice ....``And in your seed will all the Nations of the earth be blessed, because YOU HAVE OBEYED MY VOICE ``.......See God plan was for victory with His creation of Adam and Eve ....... .... See it was a tragedy of the fall of man for God As He made sure that the tree of life would Not be corrupted from Genesis 3: 24...... Then there is the serpent and the flesh of man , see the In revelation of Apostle Paul the flesh realm is a realm were demons move to manipulate man in their ears , their mind, their glands, , in their mobilities, in the abdomens is these area were demons can go ...... But through the Blood of Lord Jesus , He makes a plan to be free of demons for blessing of Christ and stabilities in this temporal life , but prayer, discernment of spirits , faith and rejection of humanism is needed ...
So very true Word of Truth here! Thank you for sharing, as it made a very interesting topic to discuss in the Spirit this evening. Amen & Hallelujah Christ Jesus!
....Shalom Aleichem!
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Did God predestine man to sin and fall? Was what happened all according to the will of God? Does God actually control man so that man will sin? If man is controlled thus is man any better then an automation? Does being made into the image and likeness of God require man to be disobedient, sin, and fall?
According to most people who believe in the salvation of all this is exactly what God planned before He ever created man on the earth. They believe God created Adam with sin indwelling him, and because he had sin indwelling him God set him up to fail. They believe even though God commanded Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil Adam could not obey the voice of God, that Adam had to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil because God actually planned for Adam to do this.
Is this really what happened in the garden? Did God really plan it all out this way, setting man up to fail so that man would be disobedient and fall into sin. Does this sound like a holy, righteous, loving God to you?
Well if that is not what happened, just what did happen in the garden? Why did man fail to obey the voice of God and fall into sin and death?
Let's start at the beginning.
Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Many believe that this is speaking of how natural man was created.
They believe that God took dust from the ground, breathed His spirit into the dust and that this union of dust and spirit is the make up of man who is then called a living soul.
But is that what God said?
Let’s look closely at this scripture.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground.
It says plainly here that God formed MAN of the dust of the ground before He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and before MAN became a living soul.
There are 3 steps spoken of here in this verse. The first step is the formation of the biological man.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground
The second step is the breath of life being breathed into the biological man.
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
Breath here is the Hebrew word n\eshamah which means spirit and is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which carries the weight of a woman in travail.
What God was doing here was birthing Christ in the biological man.
The third step is what man BECAME.
and man became a living soul.
Man was NOT created a living soul, man BECAME a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 tells us the story of man, how he was created and how he BECAME a living soul.
Genesis 2:8-3:24 is the explanation of how Adam BECAME a living soul.
Genesis 2:8
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Note that it is the MAN that God had formed that was put in the garden, NOT the living soul. The living soul is that which man BECAME upon his disobedience.
Which is what 1 Corinthians 15:45 is pointing out.
And so it is written, The first man Adam BECAME a living soul.
1 Corinthians 15 is not talking about the creation of man, it is talking about the resurrection of man from the DEAD.
And we know that Adam did not die until he disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
1 Corinthians 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
It was upon Adam's disobedience that Adam BECAME a living soul.
And once Adam BECAME a living soul he was returned to the dust from whence he was taken.
Genesis 3:23
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Romans 5:19
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
If you look up the word disobedience in that scripture it mean failure to hear properly or hearing a miss.
This in and of itself is NOT a sin, but it can lead to sin. Adam's failure to hear properly or understand (one has to hear in order to understand) is that which led him to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil/sin.
So how did this come about?
Genesis 3:1-6
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
1 Timothy 2:13-14
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Eve being deceived by the serpent ate and gave unto Adam and he ate also.
Who is the serpent? To many the serpent is nothing but mans flesh or mans carnal mind, and is not a spiritual being.
But can this be true?
It was not the serpent that gave unto Adam and caused Adam to eat, it was the woman who did this. So unless the woman is mans flesh or carnal mind the serpent cannot be mans flesh or mans carnal mind.
The people of the old testament, like many today, also believed that Satan was in reference to mans flesh. They knew nothing or very little of the spiritual realm. Everything they wrote and believed was based on the natural. This ancient ignorance (as my good brother mystic would say, only he reverses it) about our flesh being the devil or Satan was exposed to be just what it was, ignorance of the spiritual realm. When Jesus Christ came on the scene He exposed the devil for what he was, the old serpent, and it has nothing to do with our flesh.
Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Now why did Jesus speak this parable? Who is the enemy that sowed the tares?
Most who believe in the salvation of all believe it was God who sowed the tares within man. Can this be correct? Is God his own enemy? Or the enemy of man?
So why then did Jesus speak this parable?
Matthew 13:34-35
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
This parable is a spiritual lesson that was kept secret from our ancestors.
Matthew 13:37-43
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
If God sowed the tares as so many of those who believe in the salvation of all believe, does that not make God the wicked one? does that not make God the devil? After all does Jesus not say that the wicked one, who is the devil sowed the tares.
When did God become the enemy of man?
Paul also make a separation or distinction between our flesh and the devil.
Paul tells us to put on the whole armour of God that we might be able to stand against the wiles o the devil and that we wrestle NOT against FLESH and BLOOD (or the life of the flesh) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Obviously the devil is NOT the FLESH or the LIFE OF THE FLESH, for the life of the FLESH is in the blood.
Anyway if people cannot grow past the ignorance of our ancient ancestors they will never be able to over come for they are fighting the wrong battle.
So what happened in the garden?
God sowed good seed, the devil sowed the tares through deceit and the woman ate and was in the transgression and gave unto her husband also.
Now it has been suggested that God did not equip Adam with all the tools necessary but set him up to fail.
First, God NEVER ever gives us a task He has not given us the tools to complete the task.
I don't think anyone will disagree that the garden is a place of testing. Jesus was also tested in a garden.
Now a good teacher does not test their students without first going over all the information first. In other words the teacher has given their students the answers to all the question before giving their students the test.
Let's see if God did this for Adam.
0And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
God equipped Adam with the four rivers
The name of the first is Pison/increase
The name of the second river is Gihon/bursting forth
The name of the third river is Hiddekel/rapid
The fourth river is Euphrates/fruitfulness
Increase bursting forth rapidly to fruitfulness.
In summery Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil NOT the works of God
Did Adam disobey when God breathed into him the breath of life?
The Bible says that 1. God formed Adam from the soil and 2. breathed into him and 3. Adam became a living soul.
So I would suggest that "soul" is the result of spirit and flesh coming together.
I'd say God created Adam in such a way that Adam would not be subject to God's law in the garden:
Romans 8:6-8 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, (7) because
the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." (8) Now those
who are in flesh are not able to please God.
God created Adam flesh knowing full well in advance this would cause Adam not to obey His law of "Thou shalt not eat . . . ."
God created Adam as all life is created, Eusebius . . . with an immature Spirit but with fully functional animal nature needing to grow, learn and mature into a fully spiritual adult. That has been our heritage from the beginning . . . fully functional animal drives and immature Spirits.
No, that what satan wants, and do have many believing. Because he has blinded many from the truth ,(2Cor.4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them). Satan is just ticked because his weak butt was kicked out ,(Rev.12:7-9). I guess He thought Jehovah God would continue to let him and his followers be destructive, and still live in Heaven, he was fooled!
IF Jehovah God wanted man to do wrong, he wouldn’t need satan to do his work for him. The first couple would have done it from day one. You know!…when God told Adam NOT to eat from a certain tree? Many believed they ate as soon as God said not to. But they could have been for centuries before satan decided to fool eve. After all, Adam did live over 700 years. Satan wanted humans AND Angels to worship him, like they worship Jehovah God. He wanted his Glory ,(Ezek.28:13-18). And he has it from many, to bad he didn’t tell them they/we would die in the process.
God’s plan was that man live forever, peacefully, healthy and happy. One always wants to blame God for our jack-ups ,(Pro.19:3- The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD). When it was eve who talked Adam into eating the fruit. Simply because SHE wanted to believe the lie the wicked angel told her. Would Jehovah really be a loving God ,(1John4:8), then set humans up to fall? come on now!, really? We need to watch out for satan many tricks ,(Ephe.6:11 -Put on the whole Armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles, (tricks), of the devil). Believing them can get us destroyed. peace
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