"Woman Taken in Adultery" Story Not a Part of John's Original Gospel (Messiah, gnostic)
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cowdog, I have no intention of having a 'talmudic debate' with you.
The point of the story was to show how the so-called "teachers of the law"
would do anything to try to trick Jesus in matters of the law. Even the text
says it was a set up to trap Jesus. By not condemning the woman as an
adulteress, Jesus followed God's Law perfectly.
It amazes me how many "Christians" can read a text and come away with a
totally opposite conclusion to what the text actually teaches. Another example
of this is Peter's "slay and eat" vision. Christian misinterpretation [that now they
can break God's Law and eat anything] differs from what Peter himself concluded
[that the vision had nothing whatsoever to do with eating unclean foods.]
.
Last edited by king's highway; 07-29-2012 at 02:29 AM..
I think you misunderstood me, p. I have no leanings toward Calvinism. I merely used Calvinism as an example because I happened to being watching YT videos that refute it at the time I read about the story of the woman taken in adultery. My point is that if the adultery story never originated with John, then how do we know that the Prodigal Son, or the Good Shepherd, or any of the parables or ultimately ANYTHING Jesus says in the gospels originated with Jesus? We are certainly put into a quandary when it comes to relying on the Gospels for the authentic word of God if even one serious flaw like this appears. How many more additions to the gospels lay hidden in the annals of history? Of course one can close their eyes and just choose to accept everything in the NT as "gospel" if one is so inclined. But this attitude---refusing to search out the truth---is what enabled eternal torment to dominate church thinking for so many years---and no, I'm not trying to start a debate on eternal torment.
Thrill I know you have no leanings to Calvin , I was just commenting on what you said about the Calvinistic belief.
You have something far more reliable in you to witness to the the reality of what is of God and what is not.
Thrill I know you have no leanings to Calvin , I was just commenting on what you said about the Calvinistic belief.
You have something far more reliable in you to witness to the the reality of what is of God and what is not.
The anointing that abides in you.
Pcamps, I have to be honest with you. I am not 100% certain of anything relating to the more controversial issues found in the Bible such as eternal destiny and the scope of Jesus' redemption. For example, I have no idea if the Calvinists are right or wrong about TULIP, because Jesus said "No man can come to me except the Spirit draws Him". If that's the case then TULIP appears to be right and God only draws a select few to be saved because obviously the vast majority of mankind choose to reject Jesus. On the other hand, God and Jesus repeatedly admonish mankind, "Choose!". So why do the vast majority make the wrong choice and reject the HS, except the Spirit did not guide them. This would support Arminianism (the opposite of Calvinism) proving man does have free will to choose and his choice is independent of the HS. Jesus words therefore are void--man can come to Jesus without the HS drawing him. This would mean the responsibility for the wrong choice falls to man and not to God. But if Jesus' words are correct then limited atonement is correct, therefore in the Great Judgement, if fairness has any voice in this, God cannot fairly damn the person to hell because man had no ability to make the right choice because of the lack of the HS guiding him to.
I could make the same sort of argument about ET and UR. The scriptures have become so corrupt over the centuries because of tampering by evil (as well as well-meaning) copyists that we can't be 100% sure of anything we read in the scriptures, except that Jesus died for our sins. I know of hundreds of ministers who write from the three camps of eternal torment, annihilationism, and UR and all of them are 1000% convinced their position is the correct and that they arrived at their belief through the guidance of the HS. Do you see a problem with this, because I see a glaring one.
Pcamps, I have to be honest with you. I am not 100% certain of anything relating to the more controversial issues found in the Bible such as eternal destiny and the scope of Jesus' redemption. For example, I have no idea if the Calvinists are right or wrong about TULIP, because Jesus said "No man can come to me except the Spirit draws Him". If that's the case then TULIP appears to be right and God only draws a select few to be saved because obviously the vast majority of mankind choose to reject Jesus. On the other hand, God and Jesus repeatedly admonish mankind, "Choose!". So why do the vast majority make the wrong choice and reject the HS, except the Spirit did not guide them. This would support Arminianism (the opposite of Calvinism) proving man does have free will to choose and his choice is independent of the HS. Jesus words therefore are void--man can come to Jesus without the HS drawing him. This would mean the responsibility for the wrong choice falls to man and not to God. But if Jesus' words are correct then limited atonement is correct, therefore in the Great Judgement, if fairness has any voice in this, God cannot fairly damn the person to hell because man had no ability to make the right choice because of the lack of the HS guiding him to.
I could make the same sort of argument about ET and UR. The scriptures have become so corrupt over the centuries because of tampering by evil (as well as well-meaning) copyists that we can't be 100% sure of anything we read in the scriptures, except that Jesus died for our sins. I know of hundreds of ministers who write from the three camps of eternal torment, annihilationism, and UR and all of them are 1000% convinced their position is the correct and that they arrived at their belief through the guidance of the HS. Do you see a problem with this, because I see a glaring one.
I was going to say in my last post to you seem to be torn in a few directions but I didn't want to sound offensive to you Thrill. All I can say to you is come to your senses, then you will be in the right frame of mind to discern what I believe your heart is already telling you. To be free from all the baggage heaped upon your weary mind by the doctrines and traditions of men,is to learn all over again, you have heard it said,but I say unto you. There is hardly anything today that I believed over 25 years ago that I can say I believe today. I became a bigger devil after believing than before I did,but God who is faithful and never gives up on us, brought me to my senses and then commenced to rid me of the ingrained mindset I had of him.
I was going to say in my last post to you seem to be torn in a few directions but I didn't want to sound offensive to you Thrill. All I can say to you is come to your senses, then you will be in the right frame of mind to discern what I believe your heart is already telling you. To be free from all the baggage heaped upon your weary mind by the doctrines and traditions of men,is to learn all over again, you have heard it said,but I say unto you. There is hardly anything today that I believed over 25 years ago that I can say I believe today. I became a bigger devil after believing than before I did,but God who is faithful and never gives up on us, brought me to my senses and then commenced to rid me of the ingrained mindset I had of him.
Don't worry about offending me, p. I appreciate that. If I can survive the onslaughts of ET'ers I can survive anything. But I don't believe people can really unlearn what they have been conditioned to think for most of their lives. The only two thing I gave up (and not easily) was 1. ET because I saw, by sheer weight of the scriptures and my belief that God is merciful and just, that annihilation of the wicked was the only option that satisfied both these attributes. I know a good case can be made for UR but I have to settle on something and ann. seems to me to be the only logical choice, and 2. Prophecy. I was sold a bill of goods on the ridiculousness of the rapture and the antichrist and all that other garbage for so many years and I threw all that away without looking back after research proved to me it was all bogus. So I changed in that aspect as well. As for the "elect" I'm still not sure if man has free will or not. As I said above, God tells us to choose for ourselves while Jesus says no one can choose unless the Spirit guides him so I can't decide on that issue. Maybe the HS will reveal the truth one day or maybe I'll have to wait until I'm on the other side. Either way, I'll eventually get my answers.
Don't worry about offending me, p. I appreciate that. If I can survive the onslaughts of ET'ers I can survive anything. But I don't believe people can really unlearn what they have been conditioned to think for most of their lives. The only two thing I gave up (and not easily) was 1. ET because I saw, by sheer weight of the scriptures and my belief that God is merciful and just, that annihilation of the wicked was the only option that satisfied both these attributes. I know a good case can be made for UR but I have to settle on something and ann. seems to me to be the only logical choice, and 2. Prophecy. I was sold a bill of goods on the ridiculousness of the rapture and the antichrist and all that other garbage for so many years and I threw all that away without looking back after research proved to me it was all bogus. So I changed in that aspect as well. As for the "elect" I'm still not sure if man has free will or not. As I said above, God tells us to choose for ourselves while Jesus says no one can choose unless the Spirit guides him so I can't decide on that issue. Maybe the HS will reveal the truth one day or maybe I'll have to wait until I'm on the other side. Either way, I'll eventually get my answers.
You have a great attitude, Thrill.
A truthseeker you are, indeed.
To the bold: I like that you said that. I believe that wholeheartedly about each of us.
I will tell you that for me personally, with what I believe (UR) about God... my LOVE for God and my love for my fellow man has grown by leaps and bounds. THAT has been what I've measured my belief against. I trust what I believe, I trust God with my belief because of the absolute PROOF of the power of love that has played out in my own life. The seemingly solid steel barriers that have been shattered and broken down in my own heart. LOVE is relentless. Love has conquered and keeps on conquering, more and more and more and more day after day.
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING else has expanded my heart like the beautiful picture of God's power (which is LOVE) that will break through any and ALL barriers that man throws out there. Why do you think there are so many people? So many scenarios, So many life stories. The testimony of the indisputable POWER of LOVE is working itself into and through our (as a whole) history where it will one day be FULLY REVEALED.
God is revealing His love through us. Each of us. The story would not be complete if even one were lost and not part of it. If even one were annihilated, then love's power would be found to be lacking The power of GOD, the power of love would become weak. It is an impossibility for love (God) to fail. And that picture of love conquering anything and everything will be so completely Magnificent.... No-one will be able stand. We will quite literally crumple.... our knees will bow from the realization. From the utter and complete magnificence of the power of LOVE. (GOD)
This is what I see. This is my truth.
And I sometimes cannot contain myself at the thought of it.
When ALL finally, and truly come to the realization of how loved they actually are.
When all of the non-love within God's creation has been...HEALED.
The picture of God's glory...
My heart weeps because of it.
sparrow
Last edited by .sparrow.; 07-29-2012 at 08:23 PM..
Don't worry about offending me, p. I appreciate that. If I can survive the onslaughts of ET'ers I can survive anything. But I don't believe people can really unlearn what they have been conditioned to think for most of their lives. The only two thing I gave up (and not easily) was 1. ET because I saw, by sheer weight of the scriptures and my belief that God is merciful and just, that annihilation of the wicked was the only option that satisfied both these attributes. I know a good case can be made for UR but I have to settle on something and ann. seems to me to be the only logical choice, and 2. Prophecy. I was sold a bill of goods on the ridiculousness of the rapture and the antichrist and all that other garbage for so many years and I threw all that away without looking back after research proved to me it was all bogus. So I changed in that aspect as well. As for the "elect" I'm still not sure if man has free will or not. As I said above, God tells us to choose for ourselves while Jesus says no one can choose unless the Spirit guides him so I can't decide on that issue. Maybe the HS will reveal the truth one day or maybe I'll have to wait until I'm on the other side. Either way, I'll eventually get my answers.
Thrill would you annilihate your own kids if they failed you ?.
So, let's see ... Instead of looking to God's Word, the Bible for your answers, you are depending on modern 'forensics experts' to tell you what is right and wrong. Given this mindset, how do you know you can trust 'universal salvation'?
RESPONSE:
What makes you think that the Bible is God's word? Because, it says it is???
I'm told that Cinderella tells us that her's is a true story. Do you believe that?
To the OP: This has been known for some time. Apparently you just read the foot note or text note with this text is not in most reliable Bibles today. You have to understand some of the history of the New Testament. The original copies have long been lost or destroyed. The Bible we use today was written in Greek,and recopied many times by many people over many years in many places. Yes errors occured in these copies. The Greek Bible in use at the time of the first english translation was based on just a few copies. Since then, many other copies have been found, over 5000 in number in parts and wholes and have been painstakenly compared word for word. Some of these copies are quite old, dating back to about 200 AD. In this work, the older copies are given more weight or importance. As a result of this work, it was discoved that the older copies did not contain John 8, "the woman caught in adultery" Therefore it is noted in many Bibles. If you look at the end of Marks Gospel, your Bible will also likely note that vs. 9-20 were not original and added later.
This is not something to complain about but to rejoice in. As a result of this work, we have a very high degree of confidence that we have the words written by the disciples who wrote the New Testament. This is a whole field of study, if you're interested.
You have to keep in mind also, that those who can't read the original Greek are reading a translation, and all translations have some questionable translating work. Nothings perfect. But through His word, if we are diligent and study, God still reveals His truth, His works and HIs salvation in Jesus Christ.
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