Could a "Loving God" Actually Say Something This Callous? (punishment, believe)
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For he who says, “I know him”, and does not keep his commandments, is lying and the truth is not in him. (Aramaic Bible In Plain English).
1 John 2: 1Children, I write these things to you so that you will not sin, and if a person will sin, we have “The Redeemer of the accursed” with The Father - Yeshua The Messiah, The Righteous One. 2For He is The Atonement who is for the sake of our sins, and not in our place only, but also in the place of the entire universe.
3And by this we sense that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4For he who says, “I know him”, and does not keep his commandments, is lying and the truth is not in him. 5But he who keeps his word, in this one truly the love of God is perfected, for by this we know that we are in him. 6He who says, “I am in him”, must walk according to his walk. 7Beloved ones, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an ancient commandment which you had from the beginning; but the ancient commandment is that word which you have heard. 8Again, a new commandment I am writing to you, that which is true in him and in you, for the darkness has passed and the true light begins to appear.
Only in his own understanding & carnal knowledge, as this is why people do not perceive or understand the Truth of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope. Yes, He did demonstrate His gracious love for us, and through this peace Christ Jesus has left and freely given to us, we will go home. I know i am.
....Shalom Aleichem! (Peace be with you!)
No I thought it was a very good point that you would not die for someone you despise. Thrill is doing what most of us are not willing to do and that is look at what it is we actually believe. God knows his heart and why he's doing it I am certain that God gave him the desire to do so.
For he who says, “I know him”, and does not keep his commandments, is lying and the truth is not in him. (Aramaic Bible In Plain English).
1 John 2: 1Children, I write these things to you so that you will not sin, and if a person will sin, we have “The Redeemer of the accursed” with The Father - Yeshua The Messiah, The Righteous One. 2For He is The Atonement who is for the sake of our sins, and not in our place only, but also in the place of the entire universe.
3And by this we sense that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4For he who says, “I know him”, and does not keep his commandments, is lying and the truth is not in him. 5But he who keeps his word, in this one truly the love of God is perfected, for by this we know that we are in him. 6He who says, “I am in him”, must walk according to his walk. 7Beloved ones, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an ancient commandment which you had from the beginning; but the ancient commandment is that word which you have heard. 8Again, a new commandment I am writing to you, that which is true in him and in you, for the darkness has passed and the true light begins to appear.
It is what it is. Amen and Amen.
Amen, Verna and other's that have witness and posted God's truth on the matter !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
This is disturbing on so many levels. I tend to believe that Jesus never uttered these hateful words and they certainly don't demonstrate this incredible love that universal redemptionists believe God possess for His children regardless of how sinful a life they led.
To begin with, we are not even talking about sin here. The people crying, "Lord, Lord" from all appearances are not even cognizant they did anything wrong. They did this and they did that in Jesus' name and we are told nothing of what their intentions were in doing it, though we can surmise from Jesus' reply that their actions were without holy intentions. Still, the things they did were not "sinful" per se. So how could Jesus so callously write them off with "Depart from me!" if He is this totally loving understanding Savior who came to save the world?
This is not the Jesus of the Prodigal Son who told of the Father welcoming His errant child back, no questions asked, after the child lived the most horrendous kind of sinful life as a reprobate. The actions of those crying plaintively, "Lord, Lord" pale in comparison to this child's filth and yet the father (God) welcomes him back with open arms while pushing away without so much as a tear those who cry for mercy and don't even know what it was they did wrong?
Every Christian should be in dreadful fear of these words. Any of us in eternity at judgement could be crying, "Lord, Lord, didn't I give to the poor and help out those in distress and preach your word" only to have Jesus say, "I never knew you. Depart from me you worker of iniquity."
As I said, I find the contrast between the Jesus of the lost sheep and this cold and unloving Jesus so startling as to think we are talking about two totally different people. Oddly enough, it is only in Matthew that all of these hateful things appear. Witness the infamous "Depart from Me into the eternal flames prepared for the devil et.al" Luke 13:23-27 is excepted because it deals only with the Jews who denounced Him.
Can some UR'ers address how they can believe this Jesus of Matthew will be the same Jesus who will welcome the most vile sinner into His loving embrace? Again, I think a case can be made that Jesus never said these hateful words; that like countless other verses His words were either "doctored" or outright fabricated.
When a person has so much... doubt, mistrust, unbelief of the truth.... the written word of God AS it is written.... Spoken and wrote down for the world through Jesus Christ, ONLY will leave one to himself in trying to figure out God's truth with the reasoning of the flesh, the human logic, and know this that the carnal thinking will definitely cause a spiral downward leading to more confusion, doubt, mistrust rather then as for the spiritual man in whom walks in the Spirit of God, believing and trusting all things in God's grace in whom He grants one the privilege of a beautiful relationship with the Creator of life revealing to that one the continuous understanding of His truth !!
What it shows me is that there are going to be individuals that do say "Jesus is Lord" and are not led by the Holy Spirit of God but are led by the self, the carnal man who have exchange the truth for the lies and rather trust Christ that will hear those words of Jesus... ""I never knew you. Depart from me you worker of iniquity."
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 08-01-2012 at 08:41 AM..
This is disturbing on so many levels. I tend to believe that Jesus never uttered these hateful words and they certainly don't demonstrate this incredible love that universal redemptionists believe God possess for His children regardless of how sinful a life they led.
To begin with, we are not even talking about sin here. The people crying, "Lord, Lord" from all appearances are not even cognizant they did anything wrong. They did this and they did that in Jesus' name and we are told nothing of what their intentions were in doing it, though we can surmise from Jesus' reply that their actions were without holy intentions. Still, the things they did were not "sinful" per se. So how could Jesus so callously write them off with "Depart from me!" if He is this totally loving understanding Savior who came to save the world?
This is not the Jesus of the Prodigal Son who told of the Father welcoming His errant child back, no questions asked, after the child lived the most horrendous kind of sinful life as a reprobate. The actions of those crying plaintively, "Lord, Lord" pale in comparison to this child's filth and yet the father (God) welcomes him back with open arms while pushing away without so much as a tear those who cry for mercy and don't even know what it was they did wrong?
Every Christian should be in dreadful fear of these words. Any of us in eternity at judgement could be crying, "Lord, Lord, didn't I give to the poor and help out those in distress and preach your word" only to have Jesus say, "I never knew you. Depart from me you worker of iniquity."
As I said, I find the contrast between the Jesus of the lost sheep and this cold and unloving Jesus so startling as to think we are talking about two totally different people. Oddly enough, it is only in Matthew that all of these hateful things appear. Witness the infamous "Depart from Me into the eternal flames prepared for the devil et.al" Luke 13:23-27 is excepted because it deals only with the Jews who denounced Him.
Can some UR'ers address how they can believe this Jesus of Matthew will be the same Jesus who will welcome the most vile sinner into His loving embrace? Again, I think a case can be made that Jesus never said these hateful words; that like countless other verses His words were either "doctored" or outright fabricated.
First the quick hits...
The prodigal Son does not apply because the son was already a member of the family by birth. This is not the case in the Matt. 7 verse.
Next, every Christian should not be in fear because they are already a member in the family of God by faith. So they won't hear those words.
It seems like many of you trust you own instinct and feelings over what Jesus knows about eternal life, death, sin, and separation.
I'm looking at the second paragraph. Do you understand how God hates sin and how people become Christians? People can say anything and do anything and claim anything they want. None of it matters with regards to who has eternal life.
One is not a Christian unless the Holy Spirit and Jesus resides in them. Period. Otherwise, they get the depature notice from Christ. No wiggle room here.
Jesus is speaking of people, who do not have the Holy Spirit, saying they have done this and that for Him - but have not truly believed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. They are unsaved and are enemies of God. Yes - enemies - see Romans 5:8
Jesus sees the hearts of all humans. Trust Him and His judgments. Your post is not about why Jesus can be so callous... your post is about why you have a hard time with His statement.
This is disturbing on so many levels. I tend to believe that Jesus never uttered these hateful words and they certainly don't demonstrate this incredible love that universal redemptionists believe God possess for His children regardless of how sinful a life they led.
To begin with, we are not even talking about sin here. The people crying, "Lord, Lord" from all appearances are not even cognizant they did anything wrong. They did this and they did that in Jesus' name and we are told nothing of what their intentions were in doing it, though we can surmise from Jesus' reply that their actions were without holy intentions. Still, the things they did were not "sinful" per se. So how could Jesus so callously write them off with "Depart from me!" if He is this totally loving understanding Savior who came to save the world?
This is not the Jesus of the Prodigal Son who told of the Father welcoming His errant child back, no questions asked, after the child lived the most horrendous kind of sinful life as a reprobate. The actions of those crying plaintively, "Lord, Lord" pale in comparison to this child's filth and yet the father (God) welcomes him back with open arms while pushing away without so much as a tear those who cry for mercy and don't even know what it was they did wrong?
Every Christian should be in dreadful fear of these words. Any of us in eternity at judgement could be crying, "Lord, Lord, didn't I give to the poor and help out those in distress and preach your word" only to have Jesus say, "I never knew you. Depart from me you worker of iniquity."
As I said, I find the contrast between the Jesus of the lost sheep and this cold and unloving Jesus so startling as to think we are talking about two totally different people. Oddly enough, it is only in Matthew that all of these hateful things appear. Witness the infamous "Depart from Me into the eternal flames prepared for the devil et.al" Luke 13:23-27 is excepted because it deals only with the Jews who denounced Him.
Can some UR'ers address how they can believe this Jesus of Matthew will be the same Jesus who will welcome the most vile sinner into His loving embrace? Again, I think a case can be made that Jesus never said these hateful words; that like countless other verses His words were either "doctored" or outright fabricated.
The entire emphasis of this thread/post seems to be on 'what people believe God will/will not do, said or did not say, based on human logic and the rejection of God's Word the Bible. Just a few examples are highlighted below:
(1) Title: Would a "loving God" say these Words? --- Imposes an assumption of exactly what a 'loving God' means ... and what such a 'loving God' would do under any/all circumstances. This is the problem that many Christians have with those who constantly refer to a "loving God", but, reject anything in scripture that doesn't match-up with their view of "loving"
(2) "Hateful Words" - Assumes, without qualification, that either Jesus did not utter these words (regardless of context), or that they are 'too hateful' to have been reliably recorded in scripture. Sets the reader up as able to judge what is/is not accurate or acceptable in scripture
(3) Ignores context: The scripture is distinguishing between those who "honor Christ with their lips, but, whose heart is far from Him." In this case, the subject was false religious activity designed to 'indebt God' - under the presumption that God only seeks good behavior.
(4) Judges Sin - "We are not even talking about sin here" - Focus is on behavior that people consider 'sinful', rather than the heart, which God perfectly knows and judges. Suggests that these people were not even cognizant of their actions (Contradicted by Rom 1:18-20, which says that "Those who suppress the truth in their wickedness are without excuse" - This is the human foundation for judging some people "good" and others not, because of outward actions.
(5) Rejects scripture in favor of personal assumptions: Multiple instances of rejecting scripture when it doesn't correlate with one's personal beliefs or doctrine. This is a dangerous road to travel (Syncretism), because it presumes to judge/accept/reject God and His Word by human standards.
(6). " Every Christian should be in dreadful fear of these Words" - Again, this context is not directed toward faithful believers, but, toward false religious pretenders. It also subtly presumes that (if some presumably 'good Christians' will be judged this way, that none are safe ... which impunes the holiness and integrity of Almighty God). "There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." The 'fear' should exist in the minds and hearts of those who are NOT in Christ Jesus -- Again, these presumptions seem to be based on a 'proud knowledge' that they one is fully equipped to judge God (apart from scripture) ... based on what they have determined God will/will not do!
There are several other common examples in this and similar post of declaring some things in scripture to be absolute truth ... and others to be inaccurate or changed. Once one starts to sort-out what they will/will not accept in scripture, they completely eliminate any credible basis for accepting/rejecting anything else.
The entire emphasis of this thread/post seems to be on 'what people believe God will/will not do, said or did not say, based on human logic and the rejection of God's Word the Bible. Just a few examples are highlighted below:
(1) Title: Would a "loving God" say these Words? --- Imposes an assumption of exactly what a 'loving God' means ... and what such a 'loving God' would do under any/all circumstances. This is the problem that many Christians have with those who constantly refer to a "loving God", but, reject anything in scripture that doesn't match-up with their view of "loving"
(2) "Hateful Words" - Assumes, without qualification, that either Jesus did not utter these words (regardless of context), or that they are 'too hateful' to have been reliably recorded in scripture. Sets the reader up as able to judge what is/is not accurate or acceptable in scripture
(3) Ignores context: The scripture is distinguishing between those who "honor Christ with their lips, but, whose heart is far from Him." In this case, the subject was false religious activity designed to 'indebt God' - under the presumption that God only seeks good behavior.
(4) Judges Sin - "We are not even talking about sin here" - Focus is on behavior that people consider 'sinful', rather than the heart, which God perfectly knows and judges. Suggests that these people were not even cognizant of their actions (Contradicted by Rom 1:18-20, which says that "Those who suppress the truth in their wickedness are without excuse" - This is the human foundation for judging some people "good" and others not, because of outward actions.
(5) Rejects scripture in favor of personal assumptions: Multiple instances of rejecting scripture when it doesn't correlate with one's personal beliefs or doctrine. This is a dangerous road to travel (Syncretism), because it presumes to judge/accept/reject God and His Word by human standards.
(6). " Every Christian should be in dreadful fear of these Words" - Again, this context is not directed toward faithful believers, but, toward false religious pretenders. It also subtly presumes that (if some presumably 'good Christians' will be judged this way, that none are safe ... which impunes the holiness and integrity of Almighty God). "There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." The 'fear' should exist in the minds and hearts of those who are NOT in Christ Jesus -- Again, these presumptions seem to be based on a 'proud knowledge' that they one is fully equipped to judge God (apart from scripture) ... based on what they have determined God will/will not do!
There are several other common examples in this and similar post of declaring some things in scripture to be absolute truth ... and others to be inaccurate or changed. Once one starts to sort-out what they will/will not accept in scripture, they completely eliminate any credible basis for accepting/rejecting anything else.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
What did He say thereafter? Depart from me, I never knew you.
Because the "works" were not done in His name. IN LOVE.
God is Love.
The "works" were not done IN love.
Again think of the person having compassion for another and showing them love and mercy from the selfless love that is in their hearts -- This is done in God's name. This is done in LOVE.
Then there is a person who is doing things for others out of a selfishness in his heart, expecting "rewards in heaven" or what have you. --This is not love.
This verse has not a thing to do with some "eternal destiny"!
"Into the eternal fire". - GOD IS ETERNAL. GOD IS THE FIRE.
When the NON-LOVE within you is confronted FACE-to FACE with LOVE...
Do I need to go on and explain this picture?? Think about it.
WHAT is being destroyed? YOU? or the non-love within.
God is showing a very clear truth here. This verse is for our benefit so we will LEARN. It is helping us to SEE something that we NEED TO SEE. So many think they know God. But do they truly know Him? How can they truly know Him, know WHO He is if they blaspheme Him by telling others that He will torture them. Or banish them away forever. If that is what they believe, then they clearly do not know the very nature of God. who IS love.
God is love.
"DEPART FROM ME." is not callous in the least. It is loving instruction. It is said to cause the person to REFLECT on the motivations of their HEART. It is said to us TODAY even, as we read it in the bible as a GUIDE. When you read it and are CONVICTED in your own heart of your own selfish motivations.... it is teaching us TODAY and it will teach us in the future.
How would it be seen as callous? The ONLY way you could see it as being callous and NOT being said out of love... is if God were just snuffing out people like an old cigarette (annihilation) or the most ridiculous thing mankind has EVER imagined: throwing people into some endless, mindless, merciless torture pit. Which is, of course, a wicked, vile anti-christ notion.
GOD IS LOVE.
It is an IMPOSSIBILITY..... read that again.. an IMPOSSIBILITY for God to do anything that is not OUT of LOVE. GOD **IS** LOVE. When you view everything through the lens of "GOD IS LOVE" you will understand the seemingly harsh words. Instead of the wicked imaginations of MAN that dream up "destruction" as humans being tortured mercilessly, endlessly you will see "destruction" in the correct way... those things within us (non-love) that are being DESTROYED. You can see many things TWO ways, in a loving way or in a non-loving (NON-GOD) way... When you view something in a non-God (non-loving) way... you will see all manner of disgustingness. The imagination knows no bounds.
Start looking at things through a GODLY (LOVE) way. And see what that does to your understanding and confusion. God is not the author of confusion. LOVE is not the author of confusion. think about that.
I don't have an issue with Jesus calling someone out on doing something wrong. But even to the prostitute who probably committed adultery with 100 men He said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more". I don't think a more beautiful admonishment exists in the Bible. So where is such beauty for people whose only crime is doing things with less than honorable intentions?
Which is why I have my doubts about the Sermon on the Mount in general. We have to believe that either Matthew (and the gospel likely was NOT written by THE Matthew, the publican, but by someone anonymous or named Matthew) sat and laboriously transcribed as quickly as Jesus spoke, or had the Holy Spirit literally dictating to him (highly improbable) decades later after he'd either forgotten every single word, or was never even present to begin with as is the case with Luke. From a critical point of view much of this just does not make any sense as to how it all came about. People, however, are happy to close their eyes to any discriminate thinking about the matter and just accept on blind faith that all this came about "magically" without a hitch.
During Jesus' First Advent He didn't come to judge, but to go to the cross to die for the sins of the world. But all judgment has been given to Christ and at the appropriate time He will judge. At the judgment, both the judgment of the nations at the return of Christ, and at the great white throne judgment after the Millennium, those who never trusted Him for salvation will be judged on the basis of their works and sent into the eternal fire (Matt. 25:41, Rev. 20:11-15).
Furthermore, both internal and external evidence indicates that Matthew the tax collector did write the gospel of Matthew.
...So how could Jesus so callously write them off with "Depart from me!" if He is this totally loving understanding Savior who came to save the world?...
Actually, what Jesus said is a GOOD thing. A VERY GOOD thing that actually prepares the person for entering the Kingdom.
...αποχωρειτε απ εμου οι εργαζομενοι την ανομιαν.
If you look at the Greek text, the Greek definite article (οι) is here being translated as "ye that" (KJV) or "you that", or "you who" (in more modern translations) giving the sense of the whole person standing before Christ being told to depart. Depending on what the TRANSLATOR BELIEVES IN HIS OWN HEART will determine and interpret how this text is to be understood. And this is the crux of the matter.
The Greek definite article in this passage can be properly translated and understood as "that which" works lawlessness, rather than "ye that" work lawlessness. Using the translation "that which", we understand from the text that Christ is telling the flesh, the natural man to depart from His presence. That part of man, "that which" works lawlessness. It is the flesh which works lawlessness, the natural man within the person, standing in the presence of Christ, that is told to depart.
This interpretation not only is arrived at by a properly translated text, but also fits well with the context of the passage and also scripture as a whole, as shown here:
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
The words "they which" in Gal 5:21 is translated in the KJV, again, from the same Greek definite article οι, and here again the context is the flesh. It could just as easily have been translated "that which" does such things..., and understood as being the flesh, the natural man.
It is the flesh that will be told to depart from the presence of Christ. The flesh, "that which" works lawlessness will be cast out. And, this departing of the flesh must be accomplished prior to entering the Kingdom. For flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Casting out the flesh that works lawlessness is a VERY GOOD thing indeed. And Jesus, the good physician, will do it.
Praise Jesus for it my friends.
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False assumptions, produce false results!
