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I know I poke my head in and out of here, because when I've had too much of this place, I have to have a break. I do read some things from time to time, and came across a thread a couple days ago that made a lot of sense to me. I tried finding it again, but couldn't. So, anyway, this is what I was thinking, and would love everyone's opinions. Please take the time to think about what I'm saying, then reply. Thanks! We, as Christians today, condemn homosexuality because the old and new testaments speak against it. We all know Jesus never spoke of it in the New Testament, and there are only 3 passages about it, all from Paul. No other writer says a thing about it. Everyone will cling to these passages from Paul, saying it is sinful to be an acting homosexual. YET...the old and new testaments both talk about slavery. Slavery in the OT was very prominent, and even continued in the NT. Never is there any opposition to it, even in the NT. Paul even broke the OT law of sending an escaped slave back to his owner. You will find many passages in the NT regarding slavery, again, none of which condemn it.
My question? If we, as thinking, reasonable humans, can now say slavery is wrong, and not practice it, even though the bible never tells us not to, and that it's ok to own another person...why can we not look at the opposition of homosexuality as something that the bible is also "wrong" about, 2000 years later, and realize as thinking, reasonable humans, that people deserve to be treated the same, with the same rights... just as slaves did? A normal relationship of homosexuality hurts no one. Owning another human being would.
I would love everyone's opinions, but especially Christian's opinions. It's just something to think about. Maybe as we grew and realized the bible was "wrong" about slavery, we should grow and realize it is "wrong" about homosexuality.
I do understand we could then go on and on saying the bible is wrong about everything. However, that wasn't thought of when we decided slavery was wrong.
Sorry for the above formatting, I copied and pasted from my FB page, where I asked friends and family the same thing.
I know I poke my head in and out of here, because when I've had too much of this place, I have to have a break. I do read some things from time to time, and came across a thread a couple days ago that made a lot of sense to me. I tried finding it again, but couldn't. So, anyway, this is what I was thinking, and would love everyone's opinions. Please take the time to think about what I'm saying, then reply. Thanks! We, as Christians today, condemn homosexuality because the old and new testaments speak against it. We all know Jesus never spoke of it in the New Testament, and there are only 3 passages about it, all from Paul. No other writer says a thing about it. Everyone will cling to these passages from Paul, saying it is sinful to be an acting homosexual. YET...the old and new testaments both talk about slavery. Slavery in the OT was very prominent, and even continued in the NT. Never is there any opposition to it, even in the NT. Paul even broke the OT law of sending an escaped slave back to his owner. You will find many passages in the NT regarding slavery, again, none of which condemn it.
My question? If we, as thinking, reasonable humans, can now say slavery is wrong, and not practice it, even though the bible never tells us not to, and that it's ok to own another person...why can we not look at the opposition of homosexuality as something that the bible is also "wrong" about, 2000 years later, and realize as thinking, reasonable humans, that people deserve to be treated the same, with the same rights... just as slaves did? A normal relationship of homosexuality hurts no one. Owning another human being would.
I would love everyone's opinions, but especially Christian's opinions. It's just something to think about. Maybe as we grew and realized the bible was "wrong" about slavery, we should grow and realize it is "wrong" about homosexuality.
I do understand we could then go on and on saying the bible is wrong about everything. However, that wasn't thought of when we decided slavery was wrong.
Sorry for the above formatting, I copied and pasted from my FB page, where I asked friends and family the same thing.
Best not put man's reason over God's declarative Word.
I know I poke my head in and out of here, because when I've had too much of this place, I have to have a break. I do read some things from time to time, and came across a thread a couple days ago that made a lot of sense to me. I tried finding it again, but couldn't. So, anyway, this is what I was thinking, and would love everyone's opinions. Please take the time to think about what I'm saying, then reply. Thanks! We, as Christians today, condemn homosexuality because the old and new testaments speak against it. We all know Jesus never spoke of it in the New Testament, and there are only 3 passages about it, all from Paul. No other writer says a thing about it. Everyone will cling to these passages from Paul, saying it is sinful to be an acting homosexual. YET...the old and new testaments both talk about slavery. Slavery in the OT was very prominent, and even continued in the NT. Never is there any opposition to it, even in the NT. Paul even broke the OT law of sending an escaped slave back to his owner. You will find many passages in the NT regarding slavery, again, none of which condemn it.
My question? If we, as thinking, reasonable humans, can now say slavery is wrong, and not practice it, even though the bible never tells us not to, and that it's ok to own another person...why can we not look at the opposition of homosexuality as something that the bible is also "wrong" about, 2000 years later, and realize as thinking, reasonable humans, that people deserve to be treated the same, with the same rights... just as slaves did? A normal relationship of homosexuality hurts no one. Owning another human being would.
I would love everyone's opinions, but especially Christian's opinions. It's just something to think about. Maybe as we grew and realized the bible was "wrong" about slavery, we should grow and realize it is "wrong" about homosexuality.
I do understand we could then go on and on saying the bible is wrong about everything. However, that wasn't thought of when we decided slavery was wrong.
Sorry for the above formatting, I copied and pasted from my FB page, where I asked friends and family the same thing.
A couple of things. 1. The slavery that the Bible condones (but doesn't endorse) was not the man-selling that took place in this country. People could actually choose to enter slavery as a profession of sorts, and they could choose to stay with their masters after their debt was repaid. The Bible requires much better treatment of slaves than what was common in the time. It just isn't a valid comparison. Because of this, there was a major outcry against slavery in Colonial and early America--largely from Christians.
2. As for homosexuality, it is not recorded in the Bible that Jesus ever spoke on the topic, but that doesn't mean he didn't....it just wasn't recorded. On the other hand, we know that Jesus is God. Since God spoke on the matter, Jesus did. This really isn't a valid argument.
As far as the homosexuality goes, Jesus never spoke about it, but the new testament does say sexual immorality is wrong. Just like Jesus never spoke on beastiality, but it was defined in Leviticus as sexual immorality as well, which is a lifestyle that is mentioned that will stop you from inheriting the kingdom of heaven. If heterosexuals jumping from one partner to another counts as sexual imoraltiy, there is no way a homosexual should be able to get a free pass on that issue. A normal homosexual realtionship may not hurt no one, but if you let that slide, it will open the door for other sins to be normal as well.
As for slavery, the bible does say to for slaves to obey there masters and Romans 13 say we are to submit to authortiy, but I do see your point on the slavery issue. Just my personal opinion is slavery is just plain wrong in todays day and times.
Long story short, the "slavery" talked about in the Bible is much different than how many interpret it today.
Who are we to decide what is right or wrong? We're in someone else's house and he makes the rules.
So we are to assume that the only slaves in the Bible were those that sold themselves? If so, are you ok with that kind of slavery coming back? Including all the rules the old testament lays out about those slaves?
PS...not to mention the fathers selling their daughters as slaves. Would that be ok too?
A couple of things. 1. The slavery that the Bible condones (but doesn't endorse) was not the man-selling that took place in this country. People could actually choose to enter slavery as a profession of sorts, and they could choose to stay with their masters after their debt was repaid. The Bible requires much better treatment of slaves than what was common in the time. It just isn't a valid comparison. Because of this, there was a major outcry against slavery in Colonial and early America--largely from Christians.
Yes, I realize that was the case at times, but not always. Fathers sold their daughters, they bought foreigners, etc. What was it they did with the spoils of war? (I'm seriously asking, I'm not sure if they became slaves). I honestly think it is just easier for us to believe "oh, it was different back then", then to have to answer the question of, why did God condone it?
Better treatment? Let's see...
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
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2. As for homosexuality, it is not recorded in the Bible that Jesus ever spoke on the topic, but that doesn't mean he didn't....it just wasn't recorded. On the other hand, we know that Jesus is God. Since God spoke on the matter, Jesus did. This really isn't a valid argument.
It wasn't thought of as being necessary for Jesus to talk about it, I suppose, since He did not. God the Father spoke on the matter. God the Son did not. So yes, it is a valid argument.
As far as the homosexuality goes, Jesus never spoke about it, but the new testament does say sexual immorality is wrong. Just like Jesus never spoke on beastiality, but it was defined in Leviticus as sexual immorality as well, which is a lifestyle that is mentioned that will stop you from inheriting the kingdom of heaven. If heterosexuals jumping from one partner to another counts as sexual imoraltiy, there is no way a homosexual should be able to get a free pass on that issue. A normal homosexual realtionship may not hurt no one, but if you let that slide, it will open the door for other sins to be normal as well.
I totally agree with you about sexual immorality. I'm curious though about "other sins to be normal as well"...what other sin is there that actually hurts no one besides homosexuality? I can't think of any, but I'm open to hear them.
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As for slavery, the bible does say to for slaves to obey there masters and Romans 13 say we are to submit to authortiy, but I do see your point on the slavery issue. Just my personal opinion is slavery is just plain wrong in todays day and times.
Again, I agree with you. Slavery is wrong today. However, it was condoned by God, and never said to be wrong, even in the new testament. So if we, as human beings, can use our brains and say that slavery is wrong, even though God said it's ok, why can't we do the same about homosexuality? You have someone who can't help being attracted to the same sex, who loves someone, and wants the same rights as others. Doesn't common sense tell us that it should be so? Just like common sense told us that owning another human being is wrong? Even if it was how some of it was in the OT, that others gave themselves as slaves to pay off a debt. Would that be ok to do today? As in, that person owns you completely, can tell you what to do or not to do, can beat you if you disobey, etc. Or would we be repulsed by it?
As far as the homosexuality goes, Jesus never spoke about it, but the new testament does say sexual immorality is wrong. Just like Jesus never spoke on beastiality, but it was defined in Leviticus as sexual immorality as well, which is a lifestyle that is mentioned that will stop you from inheriting the kingdom of heaven. If heterosexuals jumping from one partner to another counts as sexual imoraltiy, there is no way a homosexual should be able to get a free pass on that issue. A normal homosexual realtionship may not hurt no one, but if you let that slide, it will open the door for other sins to be normal as well.
As for slavery, the bible does say to for slaves to obey there masters and Romans 13 say we are to submit to authortiy, but I do see your point on the slavery issue. Just my personal opinion is slavery is just plain wrong in todays day and times.
There is no such thing as a normal homosexual relationship. Homosexuality is abnormal from start to finish. No man who is a man in his soul and adjusted to life would want to have sex with another man, just as no woman who is a woman in her soul would want to have sex with another woman. God designed sex to be recreation between a man and a woman within marriage. Sex is also the means of procreation.
The OP is just another attempt to undermine the Bible and to promote a practice which the word of God condemns.
Leviticus chapter 18 also goes into other sexual relations his people were not to participate in (many of these situations were also not mentioned in the New Testament, not 100% positive), but would still be considered incorrect then and today. I would also refer to Matthew Chapter 19 verse 4 to 6, which would go back to Genesis. When he only approved the one action, you could read that he disapproved of the rest (everything else including homosexuality).
God had rules for the owners of slaves, and for how slaves were to act. It seems to me he did not have a problem with slavery, only when we lowered the standards for the treatment of slaves. Even today, people place themselves into positions of economic slavery with little concern over any problems it may cause in their life (different forms of slavery). In its own way, Christianity should have removed slavery from the world, while making us all servants/slaves to God, which would then show in our actions as being servant/slaves to one another.
Yes, I realize that was the case at times, but not always. Fathers sold their daughters, they bought foreigners, etc.
A dowry was given for a daughter being married off, yes. And no--the Bible doesn't prescribe the practice of a slave market.
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What was it they did with the spoils of war? (I'm seriously asking, I'm not sure if they became slaves). I honestly think it is just easier for us to believe "oh, it was different back then", then to have to answer the question of, why did God condone it?
Many were taken as slaves. Often times they were killed.
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Better treatment? Let's see...
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
That's more than the surrounding nations did for their slaves.
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The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
That was a parable. And yes---Jesus observed the fact that a servant was punished.
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However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
And those slaves were required to be treated well in comparison. And no--the Bible never commanded or endorsed it. And the alternative was to kill those people.
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It wasn't thought of as being necessary for Jesus to talk about it, I suppose, since He did not.
At least as far as the 4 Gospels document it, right? Of course, we know that Jesus did do and say things that were not included in the Gospels.
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God the Father spoke on the matter. God the Son did not. So yes, it is a valid argument.
Thank you for your opinion!
Jesus is God. So he did say it.
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I do read some things from time to time, and came across a thread a couple days ago that made a lot of sense to me. I tried finding it again, but couldn't. So, anyway, this is what I was thinking, and would love everyone's opinions. Please take the time to think about what I'm saying, then reply. Thanks!
