U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-17-2012, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,941,523 times
Reputation: 255

Advertisements

Although events described in the first five books of the Bible were supposed to have happened during the time of Moses (d about 1400 BC), some events were reported to have occurred during the lifetime of Moses, which didn’t occur until hundreds of years later

For example, Numbers 19: “Moses sent messengers from Kadesh to the king of Edom…and here we are in Kadesh, a town on the edge of your territory. 17Now let us pass through your land. We will not pass through field or vineyard, or drink water from any well; we will go along the King’s Highway, not turning aside to the right hand or to the left until we have passed through your territory.’..... But Edom said to him, ‘You shall not pass through, or we will come out with the sword against you...‘You shall not pass through.’ And Edom came out against them with a large force, heavily armed. 21Thus Edom refused to give Israel passage through their territory; so Israel turned away from them.” (NRSV).

However From UC Davis: [ http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/soc/EDOM.asp] UCSD News Release

"New archeological research from modern-day Jordan indicates the existence of the biblical nation of Edom at least as early as the 10th Century B.C., the era of kings David and Solomon, and adds to the controversy over the historical accuracy of the Old Testament. The full results of the 2002 excavation, by a team of international scholars, at the site of Khirat en-Nahas (or “ruins of copper,” in Arabic), are reported in the current issue of the British journal Antiquity."[By Barry Jagoda}

However, Moses died in the 1400’s making any meeting with a king of the Edomites chronologically impossible. But, writers of scripture between 900 and 700 BC would have had the fact of the existence of an Edomite kingdom available to them and included it in their story.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 08-17-2012 at 07:47 AM.. Reason: removed [SIZEs]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-18-2012, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,941,523 times
Reputation: 255
Default "Until this day"

Someone pointed out that there are 12 instances where the phrase “until this day” occurs in the first five books of the Bible. Doesn't this strongly suggest that such writing were written by authors long after the event?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2012, 10:36 AM
 
1,784 posts, read 2,884,313 times
Reputation: 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
Someone pointed out that there are 12 instances where the phrase “until this day” occurs in the first five books of the Bible. Doesn't this strongly suggest that such writing were written by authors long after the event?
I addressed the issue of editors and inspiration in post # 27, but you completely ignored it. Actually, you answered with a total non-sequitur, but same thing. Now you're just rehashing.

You can also see Deut. 2:10-12, 2-23; 3:13b-14.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2012, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,941,523 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
I addressed the issue of editors and inspiration in post # 27, but you completely ignored it. Actually, you answered with a total non-sequitur, but same thing. Now you're just rehashing.

You can also see Deut. 2:10-12, 2-23; 3:13b-14.
RESPONSE:

"Until this day" is a bit more than an "editorial comment." It's a time reference. But, as I have demonstrated in my posts, some of the people with whom Moses was said to have interacted didn't live until hundreds of years after his death.

Example: " However, Moses died in the 1400’s making any meeting with a king of the Edomites chronologically impossible. But, writers of scripture between 900 and 700 BC would have had the fact of the existence of an Edomite kingdom available to them and included it in their story. " Hardly an "editorial comment."

And the Exodus story itself defies common sense. The figure 600,000 warriors is from the Bible itself, or are you going to claim it was just an editorial comment?:

How many came out of the exodus of Egypt By Jacob Gebhart

RSV Exodus 12:37 “And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children”.

According to this passage 600,000 men descended from Yaacov left Egypt. If each man is married with the average of 5 children, this brings the entire population of Israel to 6,000,000. This is not including the mixed multitude that came out with them (Exodus 12:38) or the flocks and herds that they also brought out. This large number of people creates a few problems. The first is the size of this "army" (Exodus 12:41 - hosts meaning army. Also Exodus 12:37 where the men are called "gevoriym" or warriors) compared to the size of Pharaohs army of 600 chariots (Exodus 14:7) which brought fear to the Israelites. How could 600 chariots be considered a threat to 600,000 warriors of Israel? Equally puzzling is the fear the Israelites felt at entering the promised land where each city probably contained no more than 5,000 warriors compared to their 600,000

Last edited by ancient warrior; 08-18-2012 at 05:03 PM.. Reason: addition
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2012, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,941,523 times
Reputation: 255
The Book of Joshua tells the story of a number of battles in which Joshua and the Hebrews defeated the Canaanites.

Joshua 11:23 "So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the Lord had spoken to Moses; and Joshua gave it for an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal allotments. And the land had rest from war." (NRSV)


However, Joshua was soon back fighting again.

Joshua 13:1-6 "Now Joshua was old and advanced in years; and the Lord said to him, ‘You are old and advanced in years, and very much of the land still remains to be possessed. 2This is the land that still remains: all the regions of the Philistines, and all those of the Geshurites 3(from the Shihor, which is east of Egypt, northwards to the boundary of Ekron, it is reckoned as Canaanite; there are five rulers of the Philistines, those of Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Gath, and Ekron), and those of the Avvim 4in the south; all the land of the Canaanites, and Mearah that belongs to the Sidonians, to Aphek, to the boundary of the Amorites, 5and the land of the Gebalites, and all Lebanon, towards the east, from Baal-gad below Mount Hermon to Lebo-hamath, 6all the inhabitants of the hill country from Lebanon to Misrephoth-maim, even all the Sidonians. I will myself drive them out from before the Israelites; only allot the land to Israel for an inheritance, as I have commanded you." (NRSV)

Last edited by ancient warrior; 08-18-2012 at 07:19 PM.. Reason: got rid of [SIZE}s
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2012, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,941,523 times
Reputation: 255
Question

If the Exodus story isn’t a historical event, thus the Israelites didn’t spend 400 years in Egypt, 40 years in the desert, and then invade and conquer Canaan, where did the Israelites come from?

The modern period for archaeology began after the Jewish war of 1967. Quite a bit has been learned since then because investigations were no longer limited to only the excavations of sites of the ancient cites but investigated the entire country.

Amazing as it may be, they found that the Israelites were nomadic tribes largely settled in the hill country of Israel and generally having nothing to do with the large cities and kingdoms.

Early evidence of this is the Merneprah stele, also known as the Israel Stele or Victory Stele of Merneptah, named after an Egyptian king, who enforced Egyptian rule on areas of Canaan then part of Egypt’s possessions.

This inscription is probably the first to mention the Israelites. A portion of the inscription reads “Israel is laid waste and his seed is not.”

This dates from about 1200 BC, long after the time of Moses

Last edited by ancient warrior; 08-18-2012 at 07:25 PM.. Reason: got rid of [SIZE]s
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2012, 10:15 PM
 
1,784 posts, read 2,884,313 times
Reputation: 1242
I remembered why I stopped answering yours posts - the goalposts move every time.

I answer one objection, and instead of any sort of acknowledgement, I just get a new, different one in return. Yawn.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2012, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,941,523 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
I remembered why I stopped answering yours posts - the goalposts move every time.

I answer one objection, and instead of any sort of acknowledgement, I just get a new, different one in return. Yawn.
RESPONSE:

Then you'd be wise to stop reading and replying to my posts.

(I always give your posts the attention they deserve.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-20-2012, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,941,523 times
Reputation: 255
Again using the following text, we find that:

The Bible Unearthed – Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel And the Origin of its Sacred Texts, Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

Since 1967, there have been about 250 sites found where the nomads settled in Canaan. The nomads were originally herdsmen. Later they became farmers which meant that they tended to stay in one area.

Of all the sites excavated, none contained weapons leading to the conclusion that these people, the early settlers of what would later become Israel,were not warriors.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top