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Old 08-11-2012, 03:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Armageddon occurs after the Millenial Reign...Look it up...
No it does not. You are confusing the Gog and Magog revolution at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8)with the Armageddon Campaign which takes place at the end of the Tribulation (Rev. 16:12-16).

Revelation 16:16 is the only passage where the word Armageddon is mentioned. The Armageddon Campaign will involve the nations of the world coming against Jerusalem at the end of the Tribulation and will involve the geographical areas of Jerusalem (Zech. 12:2-11; 14:2), Megiddo and the Plain of Esdraelon (Rev. 16:16), Jehoshaphat Valley, east of Jerusalem (Ezek. 39:11; Joel 3:2), and Edom ( 63:1-6).

When Jesus returns, these armies of the antichrist who have gathered against Jerusalem will attempt to fight against the Lord only to be destroyed by Him as stated in Revelation 19:17-21).
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Old 08-11-2012, 04:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Revelations is not in chronological order...
The name of the Book is Revelation, not Revelations. It is one revelation which John received from Jesus Christ.

The book of Revelation has three main divisions as listed in Rev. 1:19. "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

'The things which you have seen' refers to the things which John saw in Revelation chapter one.

'The things which are' refers to the seven churches of Asia which represent the trends and cycles of churches throughout the present church-age. This is covered in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

'The things which will take place after these things' refers to the events which will take place after the church has been raptured. The Tribulation and the return of Christ is covered in Revelation chapters 4 through 19. Revelation chapter 20 covers the imprisonment of Satan for the duration of the Tribulation, his release at the end of the Tribulation, the God and Magog revolution at the end of the Millennium, Satan's permanent imprisonment in the lake of fire, the destruction of the present heavens and earth, and the great white throne judgment. Revelation chapter 21 covers the new heavens and earth, the eternal state.

Now within Revelation chapters 4 through 19 which cover the Tribulation, the events progress from the seven seal judgments, to the seven trumpet judgments, to the seven bowl judgments.

In describing these events, John will start with an overview and then come back and cover specfic details which he covered in the overview.

The Armageddon Campaign takes place at the end of the Tribulation while the Gog and Magog revolution mentioned in Revelation 20:8-9 takes place at the end of the Millennium. These are two different events separated by a thousand years.
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Old 08-11-2012, 04:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
This is not Armageddon:

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of a great multitude in the heaven, saying, `Alleluia! the salvation, and the glory, and the honour, and the power, is to the Lord our God;
Rev 19:2 because true and righteous are His judgments, because He did judge the great ***** who did corrupt the earth in her whoredom, and He did avenge the blood of His servants at her hand;'
Rev 19:3 and a second time they said, `Alleluia;' and her smoke doth come up--to the ages of the ages!
Rev 19:4 And fall down did the elders--the twenty and four--and the four living creatures, and they did bow before God who is sitting upon the throne, saying, `Amen, Alleluia.'
Rev 19:5 And a voice out of the throne did come forth, saying, `Praise our God, all ye His servants, and those fearing Him, both the small and the great;'
Rev 19:6 and I heard as the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, `Alleluia! because reign did the Lord God--the Almighty!
Rev 19:7 may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife did make herself ready;
Rev 19:8 and there was given to her that she may be arrayed with fine linen, pure and shining, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.'
Rev 19:9 And he saith to me, `Write: Happy are they who to the supper of the marriage of the Lamb have been called;' and he saith to me, `These are the true words of God;'
Rev 19:10 and I fell before his feet, to bow before him, and he saith to me, `See--not! fellow servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren, those having the testimony of Jesus; bow before God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy.'
Rev 19:11 And I saw the heaven having been opened, and lo, a white horse, and he who is sitting upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness doth he judge and war,
Rev 19:12 and his eyes are as a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems--having a name written that no one hath known, except himself,
Rev 19:13 and he is arrayed with a garment covered with blood, and his name is called, The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in the heaven were following him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen--white and pure;
Rev 19:15 and out of his mouth doth proceed a sharp sword, that with it he may smite the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he doth tread the press of the wine of the wrath and the anger of God the Almighty,
Rev 19:16 and he hath upon the garment and upon his thigh the name written, `King of kings, and Lord of lords.'
Rev 19:17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried, a great voice, saying to all the birds that are flying in mid-heaven, `Come and be gathered together to the supper of the great God,
Rev 19:18 that ye may eat flesh of kings, and flesh of chiefs of thousands, and flesh of strong men, and flesh of horses, and of those sitting on them, and the flesh of all--freemen and servants--both small and great.'
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together to make war with him who is sitting upon the horse, and with his army;
Rev 19:20 and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast--the two--to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;
Rev 19:21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him who is sitting on the horse, which sword is proceeding out of his mouth, and all the birds were filled out of their flesh.



Rev 20:1 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand,
Rev 20:2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

See below regarding the SECOND Resurrection for verse 20:

(Rev 20:5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.)

Obviously the first resurrection occurs prior to the millenial reign and those that have that first resurrection, are those that believed in Yeshua and the Gospel:

(Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.)

Here is where Armageddon begins:

(Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them together to war, of whom the number is as the sand of the sea;
Rev 20:9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them

And here is the end of Armageddon:

(Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.)


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;

Here is the SECOND Resurrection:

Rev 20:12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
Rev 20:13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
Rev 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
Rev 20:15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.


One's hope rests in not being resurrected and seeing scrolls being opened...
To the contrary. Revelation 20:7 is not a reference to Armageddon. As I explained in another post you are confusing the Armageddon Campaign at the end of the Tribulation with the Gog and Magog Revolution mentioned in Revelation 20:8-9 at the end of the Millennium. They are two different events separated by a thousand years.
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The return of the Jews to the land is in two phases. The first phase is a return of many Jews to the land in a state of unbelief. This has been accomplished. As of 1948 there is now a nation or state of Israel. When Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation He will return to an existing Israel. He will return and defend Jerusalem from the armies of the antichrist who are attacking it.

The second phase is a return of all the Jews to Israel in a state of belief. Because of the judgments of the tribulation all the Jews will realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they had rejected. When Christ at returns at the end of the Tribulation He will regather all the Jews to Israel.

Jesus will indeed sit on the throne of David during the Millennial kingdom which will be established when He returns.
RESPONSE:

>>The return of the Jews to the land is in two phases<<

Really? Please cite your biblical reference. Or is this just your attempt to rationalize what Jesus didn't accomplish?

>>Because of the judgments of the tribulation all the Jews will realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they had rejected<<

Nice theory, but the prophecy is what the messiah will do during his lifetime so it will prove that he is the messiah. Jesus never raised any such signal nor accomplished the return of the Jews during his life time. In fact, following his death, the major dispora happened in 135 AD.

Is 11:12 He will raise a signal for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel,and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

>>The return of the Jews to the land is in two phases<<

Really? Please cite your biblical reference. Or is this just your attempt to rationalize what Jesus didn't accomplish?
Those references are contained in the study I provided in post #15 on 'Israel Regathered.' If you're interested, get your references there. Since you're not interested, you won't.

Quote:
>>Because of the judgments of the tribulation all the Jews will realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they had rejected<<

Nice theory, but the prophecy is what the messiah will do during his lifetime so it will prove that he is the messiah. Jesus never raised any such signal nor accomplished the return of the Jews during his life time. In fact, following his death, the major dispora happened in 135 AD.

Is 11:12 He will raise a signal for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel,and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
In Jesus' final lament over Israel He said, '"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'" Matthew 23:37-39. Jesus was speaking of His return to the earth to establish His Millennial kingdom.

The Kingdom had been offered to Israel during His First Advent and the offer was rejected. Therefore the kingdom was to be postphoned until Jesus' Second Advent. Israel was to be dispersed which happened in 70 A.D. But the first phase of Israel's regathering took place in 1948. The final phase of Israel's regathering will take place when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.


Isaiah chapter 11 refers to the righteous reign of the branch. It refers to the Millennial kingdom which will be established when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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[quote=Mike555;25595091]Those references are contained in the study I provided in post #15 on 'Israel Regathered.' If you're interested, get your references there. Since you're not interested, you won't.


RESPONSE:

No. I don't think I'll play your game. If you can't answer the question here, I conclude you don't really have an adequate answer.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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[quote=Mike555;25595091]


In Jesus' final lament over Israel He said, '"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'" Matthew 23:37-39. Jesus was speaking of His return to the earth to establish His Millennial kingdom.

RESPONSE:

No. Jesus was speaking of his return during the lifetime of his followers. There are a number of NT quotations that have Jesus, and in one famous case Paul, attesting to that. But Jesus didn't return, did he?

You can make "Millennial kingdom" arguments all you want to try to explain whay Jesus did not fulfill the OT prophecies about the messiah. But most understand what you failed to explain the facts.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:55 AM
 
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[quote=ancient warrior;25597922]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post


In Jesus' final lament over Israel He said, '"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'" Matthew 23:37-39. Jesus was speaking of His return to the earth to establish His Millennial kingdom.

RESPONSE:

No. Jesus was speaking of his return during the lifetime of his followers. There are a number of NT quotations that have Jesus, and in one famous case Paul, attesting to that. But Jesus didn't return, did he?

You can make "Millennial kingdom" arguments all you want to try to explain whay Jesus did not fulfill the OT prophecies about the messiah. But most understand what you failed to explain the facts.
Jesus never said He was going to return in the lifetime of His followers. But it is true that many believed that He would. The return of Christ for His Church (the rapture of the church) is eminent which means that there is no prophecy which needs to be fulfilled before the church can be raptured.

However, the return of Christ to establish His kingdom is a different matter. The Tribulation must occur before Christ returns to set up His kingdom. But the Tribulation cannot occur until after the church has been raptured. The return of Christ for the church and the return of Christ to set up His Millennial kingdom are two separate events.

When asked by the apostles after His resurrection when He would restore the kingdom to Israel, Jesus told them that it was not for them to know the times and seasons (or epochs) which implyed that a very long period of time might elapse before He returned to establish the Millennial kingdom. Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7] 'He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;' In that statement Jesus refered to both length of time and kinds of time which the Father has set by His own authority and that it was not for them to know.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:08 AM
 
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[quote=ancient warrior;25597896]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Those references are contained in the study I provided in post #15 on 'Israel Regathered.' If you're interested, get your references there. Since you're not interested, you won't.


RESPONSE:

No. I don't think I'll play your game. If you can't answer the question here, I conclude you don't really have an adequate answer.
Conclude what you wish. You've been given a detailed source of information on the subject which not only gives the passages but explains them. Since the scriptural references are given in the classes I could easily give them here, but I would also have to explain those passages which I am not going to take the time to do when I know full well that you will simply deny what they mean.

How very miserable your life must be that you devote so much time and effort in attacking the word of God and attempting to discredit it, and in trying to destroy the faith of others.
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Old 08-12-2012, 01:31 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No it does not. You are confusing the Gog and Magog revolution at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8)with the Armageddon Campaign which takes place at the end of the Tribulation (Rev. 16:12-16).

Revelation 16:16 is the only passage where the word Armageddon is mentioned. The Armageddon Campaign will involve the nations of the world coming against Jerusalem at the end of the Tribulation and will involve the geographical areas of Jerusalem (Zech. 12:2-11; 14:2), Megiddo and the Plain of Esdraelon (Rev. 16:16), Jehoshaphat Valley, east of Jerusalem (Ezek. 39:11; Joel 3:2), and Edom ( 63:1-6).

When Jesus returns, these armies of the antichrist who have gathered against Jerusalem will attempt to fight against the Lord only to be destroyed by Him as stated in Revelation 19:17-21).
And these armies that are destroyed are after the millenium...After satan is loosed and gathers an army from the four corners of the earth...
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