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No, I don't see the difference. What's amazing about the Trinity is that there's relationship and unity at the same time.
*** reasoning from the scriptures p. 405 - p. 406 Trinity ***
What is the origin of the Trinity doctrine?
The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.
According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.
John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.
As you can see many, other than Jehovah's Witnesses, acknowledge the truth with regards to the pagan origin of the trinity.
Their fatal error is their belief about Jesus, an error they share with Mormans and Moslems, that Jesus is a created being and not God. You can't be saved by believing on a "Jesus" that is not God.
(Colossians 1:13-15) 13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Colossians 1:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
*** reasoning from the scriptures p. 405 - p. 406 Trinity ***
What is the origin of the Trinity doctrine?
The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.
According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.
John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.
As you can see many, other than Jehovah's Witnesses, acknowledge the truth with regards to the pagan origin of the trinity.
In Tertullians argument against Praxeus in 200AD he uses the words Tres Unum Sunt referring to the three person in one God 1 John 5:7. The Nomina Sacra of early manuscripts have Christ, Jesus, Lord, etc all abbreviated expressing the divinity of his person. All throughout the New Testament, the Apostles declared Jesus as equal to God.
There is truth that Pagans had a trinitarian type view prior to the birth of Christ. This isn't pre-Christianity however. Christianity was born in Genesis 3.
Genesis 3
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Satan's introduction of the trinity occurs at the Tower of Babel as evidenced by the Father, Son, Mother prototype. It's the Satanic trinity with him attempting to fulfill messianic prophecy with Tammuz - the proclaimed resurrection of Nimrod.
OTEzekiel 34:12
As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep.
NT John 10:14
“I am thegoodshepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
Ezekiel 34:16
A: I will search for the lost and bring back the strays.
B1: I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, [B2] but the sleek and the strong I will destroy.
C: I will shepherd the flock with justice.
NT fulfillment:
A: Luke 19:10
"For the Son of Man came toseekandtosave what was lost.”
B1:Matthew 14:14
When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healedtheir sick.
B2:Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory.
C:Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory
I just need a JW to explain it to me why people do bad things to me,and I've been praying to Jehovah and studying with Jw.
Is it becuase I'm praying and trying to get closer to Jehovah?
Is the devil somehow,since he rules the world, using those people to do things to me,just because I'm trying to get closer to Jehovah?
Or is that's just the way of the world?
That's exactly what it is. See Satan and all his demon followers don't want anyone to get closer to Jehovah God, so when he see that one is, he jump on them fast. Like for example: If you was struggling with money problems, Satan would make it where someone else that's not serving Jehovah receive a check in the mail. Satan was an evil angel, that wanted everybody to worship him, and not Jehovah, so, because he know that he will get destroy, he wants everybody to do the same. And yes Satan is in the way ruling the world, because you have Christians, Governments, Presidents, etc. in this world, but if you really want to serve Jehovah, then continue to do that, and don't let nobody tell you anything different, because when the world ends; you'll see that JWs was telling the truth about everything, and worshipping the right God all along.
In Tertullians argument against Praxeus in 200AD he uses the words Tres Unum Sunt referring to the three person in one God 1 John 5:7. The Nomina Sacra of early manuscripts have Christ, Jesus, Lord, etc all abbreviated expressing the divinity of his person. All throughout the New Testament, the Apostles declared Jesus as equal to God.
There is truth that Pagans had a trinitarian type view prior to the birth of Christ. This isn't pre-Christianity however. Christianity was born in Genesis 3.
Genesis 3
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Satan's introduction of the trinity occurs at the Tower of Babel as evidenced by the Father, Son, Mother prototype. It's the Satanic trinity with him attempting to fulfill messianic prophecy with Tammuz - the proclaimed resurrection of Nimrod.
(LITV)
1Jn 5:7 For there are three bearing witness in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three who bear witness on the earth: The Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are to the one.
(YLT)
1Jn 5:7 because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these--the three--are one;
1Jn 5:8 and three are who are testifying in the earth , the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.
Notice the grayed out portions?...These were not in the original Greek manuscripts...Even Luther transated into German from Greek...
1Jn 5:7 Denn drei sind, die da zeugen: der Geist und das Wasser und das Blut;
1Jn 5:8 und die drei sind beisammen.
There are three that winess: the Ghost, and the Water and the Blood.
and the three are together.
This mentions nothing of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being one...
Even in the modern Hebrew NT it does not translate out of Hebrew as the three being one...It state that their witness agree...
ושלשה המה המעידים בארץ הרוח המים והדם ושלשתם עדות אחת׃
כי שלשה המעידים בשמים האב הדבר ורוח הקדש ושלשתם אחד המה׃
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.
Joh 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
All He says here is that Abraham knew of the day the Messiah would come and leaped for joy...And that He was already in the plans before Abraham came to be...
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Ezekiel 34:16
A: I will search for the lost and bring back the strays.
B1: I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, [B2] but the sleek and the strong I will destroy.
C: I will shepherd the flock with justice.
NT fulfillment:
A: Luke 19:10
"For the Son of Man came toseekandtosave what was lost.”
B1:Matthew 14:14
When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healedtheir sick.
B2:Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory.
C:Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory
So, where did Yeshua destroy the s'leek and strong'?...
Last edited by Richard1965; 08-22-2012 at 08:02 AM..
That's exactly what it is. See Satan and all his demon followers don't want anyone to get closer to Jehovah God, so when he see that one is, he jump on them fast. Like for example: If you was struggling with money problems, Satan would make it where someone else that's not serving Jehovah receive a check in the mail. Satan was an evil angel, that wanted everybody to worship him, and not Jehovah, so, because he know that he will get destroy, he wants everybody to do the same. And yes Satan is in the way ruling the world, because you have Christians, Governments, Presidents, etc. in this world, but if you really want to serve Jehovah, then continue to do that, and don't let nobody tell you anything different, because when the world ends; you'll see that JWs was telling the truth about everything, and worshipping the right God all along.
(LITV)
1Jn 5:7 For there are three bearing witness in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three who bear witness on the earth: The Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are to the one.
(YLT)
1Jn 5:7 because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these--the three--are one;
1Jn 5:8 and three are who are testifying in the earth , the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.
Notice the grayed out portions?...These were not in the original Greek manuscripts...Even Luther transated into German from Greek...
1Jn 5:7 Denn drei sind, die da zeugen: der Geist und das Wasser und das Blut;
1Jn 5:8 und die drei sind beisammen.
There are three that winess: the Ghost, and the Water and the Blood.
and the three are together.
This mentions nothing of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being one...
Even in the modern Hebrew NT it does not translate out of Hebrew as the three being one...It state that their witness agree...
ושלשה המה המעידים בארץ הרוח המים והדם ושלשתם עדות אחת׃
כי שלשה המעידים בשמים האב הדבר ורוח הקדש ושלשתם אחד המה׃
Yes I understand that 10 or so of the 500 documents that currently exist contain 1 John 5:7. There is evidence that it existed in early manuscripts however. The Gnostics were well known of deleting scripture to support their perspective that all can be "christs" through "enlightenment" thus deleting the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe the evidence is in favor that this was deleted not added. Plus the Scripture does not make any sense without it and does not flow.
Yes I understand that 10 or so of the 500 documents that currently exist contain 1 John 5:7. There is evidence that it existed in early manuscripts however. The Gnostics were well known of deleting scripture to support their perspective that all can be "christs" through "enlightenment" thus deleting the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe the evidence is in favor that this was deleted not added. Plus the Scripture does not make any sense without it and does not flow.
OK...Now it's the Gnostics that did this?...The greyed out portions are an indication of a suspected interpolation...Those verses still flow without them..we can all agree that Yeshua was the promised Messiah...But also was David and a few other OT figures...Might it be that you were 'taught' to see it the way you see it and not neccessarily the way it actually is and this is from where your reluctance stems?...Have you actually seen these 'early' manuscipts or are you just going off of another's say so?...Why wouldn't the Mdern Hebrew New Testament have this?...
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, nor will I tempt Jehovah.
Isa 7:13 And He said, Hear now, O house of David, is it too little that you weary men, but will you also weary my God?
This here is speaking of Yeshua:
Isa 7:14 So, The Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold! The virgin will conceive and will bring forth a son; and she shall call His name Immanuel.
And here it say that Yeshau must learn to refuse evil and choose good:
Isa 7:15 He shall eat curds and honey until He knows to refuse the evil and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the boy shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you hate will be forsaken before both her kings.
If, in fact, Yeshua was HaShem in the flesh, and this would be from birth, why would He have to LEARN anything, especially learning 'to refuse evil and choose good'?...could it be that on the day He was baptized by John and had the holy Spirit descend on Him that this was when He was given the authority of His Father?...And why would Yeshua state that He is going to His God and your God?...If in fact He was god in the flesh?...
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