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"having believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise," not "at the moment you believed you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise." [/color]
"receive the promise of the Spirit through faith," not "receive the promise of the Spirit the moment you have faith."[/color]
"the same gift as He gave to us also" (that is, speaking in tongues) "after believing," not "the same gift as He gave to us also at the moment of belief."[/color]
I continue to maintain that there are no Scriptures that say we receive the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit the moment we believe.
Yes, Simon was baptized and if Acts 2:38 is true then he did receive the Holy Spirit. What he didn't receive was the gift of tongues. Obviously the laying on of the apostles hands resulted in something that people could physically see with their eyes. While tongues are not actually mentioned in the passage, I don't know of anything else that can be seen physically with the eyes that could be termed "receiving the Holy Spirit."
Funny how you are a strict constructionist with when the Spirit is received, yet water is rarely present (or even mentioned) at any of these conversions - and somehow you are OK with that.
Regarding Simon, Peter tells you what happened. His heart wasn't right. Simon wanted the power, not the Christ. You didn't see that in the text?
You say the red above - but I am willing to say that you have never seen the Holy Spirit at a water baptism either. Do you only believe in water baptisms when accompanied with tongues?
A mother tells her child, "Go to the store. Bring back bread, lettuce, and tomatoes, and I'll give you $50. Bring bread and lettuce, you get nothing.". The child comes back with bread and lettuce. The child then ask her mother for the $50. The mother says, "No. You didn't do what I told you. I told you to get breat lettuce AND tomatoes, and I'll give you $50. You didn't do everything I asked, so you don't get anything."
Matt 16:16- If Jesus out of his own mouth says, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, why is it optional to only believe when that's not what Jesus said? You must do both. Therefore it goes to reason if you want to be saved you must believe AND be baptized.
Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
I cannot find in the bible where it says baptism is an outward sign to Christ. Instead I do read in Act 2:38 we are baptized for the remission of sins. Which means, you still are with sin if you haven't been baptized. And they were also baptized on the SAME DAY that they believed. Acts 2:41 They did not have to wait until "baptism Sunday" which is not sound doctrine.
From my studies, I've learned in order to be saved, you must be born again, be baptized, fully submerged in water.
Billy the Kid was Wanted "FOR" murder! Does that means he was wanted to murder someone or because he had murdered someone? Kind of like "Wanted Because Of" or "Be Baptized Because Of".
Yes. There is NOTHING WE do or do not do that has anything to do with our salvation. Christ already DID that part. The question "Are you saved IF . . . (ANYTHING) . . ." is always Yes. Whether or not we are fully sanctified and justified under Christ's grace DOES depend on us. We are to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. Any unrepented failures in this regard will have consequences (NOT eternal punishment) . . . but WE are "saved as by fire."
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Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm
Objectively so, that is true indeed .
However, subjectively speaking, knowing the objective truth of what Christ has accomplished for us must also be received.
For instance, as in: receiving the Good News of the Gospel, and knowing God's work, in Christ, on our behalf.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
The subjectivity is part of the sanctification process that we achieve by "loving God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't.
1 John 4:7-12 King James Version (KJV)
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
<snip>
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Billy the Kid was Wanted "FOR" murder! Does that means he was wanted to murder someone or because he had murdered someone? Kind of like "Wanted Because Of" or "Be Baptized Because Of".
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
But it says baptized for the remission of sins. F"or" meaning, the reason why. I went to the store "for" some bread. I'm baptized "for" the remission of my sins.
What do you say is the reason for baptism? And can you please give me the text that you are referring to? I like you Jimmy. You encourage me to study, and I appreciate that.
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
But it says baptized for the remission of sins. F"or" meaning, the reason why. I went to the store "for" some bread. I'm baptized "for" the remission of my sins.
What do you say is the reason for baptism? And can you please give me the text that you are referring to? I like you Jimmy. You encourage me to study, and I appreciate that.
The point being is that "for" does not always mean what your saying it means. It can also be "because of". I was just pointing out that fact.
LUKE 5:13,14 we read of a leper who was immediately healed when Jesus touched him and spoke. After his healing, Jesus told him, "... go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer FOR thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them." Notice: the man ALREADY HAD his cleansing from leprosy when Jesus told him to go to the priest and bring an offering "FOR THY CLEANSING." If you tried to substitute "in order to obtain" in place of the word "for" in Lk. 5:13,14 it would NOT fit!
If someone tells you to take 2 aspirin for a headache do you think the aspirin are going to give you a headache or you should take them because you already have a headache?
I like you too! I am glad I make you study. As long as you come to the same conclusion I do it is good!
(SEE, I have a sense of humor too!)
Let's stay with the Act's 2:38 verse for now.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Can you please tell me when the Gift of the Holy Ghost is to come based on this verse? Before or after Baptism? Before or after Salvation or Remission of sins?
The point being is that "for" does not always mean what your saying it means. It can also be "because of". I was just pointing out that fact.
LUKE 5:13,14 we read of a leper who was immediately healed when Jesus touched him and spoke. After his healing, Jesus told him, "... go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer FOR thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them." Notice: the man ALREADY HAD his cleansing from leprosy when Jesus told him to go to the priest and bring an offering "FOR THY CLEANSING." If you tried to substitute "in order to obtain" in place of the word "for" in Lk. 5:13,14 it would NOT fit!
If someone tells you to take 2 aspirin for a headache do you think the aspirin are going to give you a headache or you should take them because you already have a headache?
I like you too! I am glad I make you study. As long as you come to the same conclusion I do it is good!
(SEE, I have a sense of humor too!)
Let's stay with the Act's 2:38 verse for now.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Can you please tell me when the Gift of the Holy Ghost is to come based on this verse? Before or after Baptism? Before or after Salvation or Remission of sins?
Hahaha.....
Okay, well, from my understanding, he says 1. 2. 3.
1. repent
2. and (meaning in addition to, or is there some other meaning for "and") be baptized...because there's no reason to get baptized if you haven't repented, right? (do we agree on that one?)
How-In the name of Jesus Christ
Why- for the remission of sins
3. and (again meaning in addition to) ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost.
So if I don't repent, I don't get baptized. And if I don't get baptized, I won't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. You recieve the Holy Ghost after you are baptized. If we got the Holy Ghost before we are baptized, why doesn't he say, repent and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, then get baptized?
Now....come on and explain to me how we get the Holy Ghost before we are baptized.
Hahaha.....
Okay, well, from my understanding, he says 1. 2. 3.
1. repent
2. and (meaning in addition to, or is there some other meaning for "and") be baptized...because there's no reason to get baptized if you haven't repented, right? (do we agree on that one?)
How-In the name of Jesus Christ
Why- for the remission of sins
3. and (again meaning in addition to) ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost.
So if I don't repent, I don't get baptized. And if I don't get baptized, I won't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. You recieve the Holy Ghost after you are baptized. If we got the Holy Ghost before we are baptized, why doesn't he say, repent and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, then get baptized?
Now....come on and explain to me how we get the Holy Ghost before we are baptized.
Let's let the scripture explain this one:
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
There you have it. The Holy Ghost was given to those who heard (that means they had been saved) and because of this they were baptized.
As for Act's 2:38, if you follow the rules of Greek and English for that matter it would not work out.
Let me quote this from the book "Let's Study Greek" by Clarence B. Hale (Chicago: Moody Press, 1966), p. 9:
"If the subject of a verb is the person or the group of persons speaking, the verb is in the first person. If the subject of a verb is the person or group of persons spoken to, the verb is in the second person. If the subject of a verb is the person or the thing or the group spoken of, the verb is the third person" (emphasis his).
"These quotations from 'standard' Greek grammars express the simple fact that subjects and verbs agree with one another.
"It is evident, then, that repentance and baptism in Acts 2:38 cannot be combined so as to have both modified by the phrase, 'for the remission of sins.' The proper grammatical construction of the sentence forbids it ....
"The phrase, 'for the remission of sins,' stands and modifies in only one of the three clauses, namely, the second clause ..." (emphasis his).
For your view of this passage to work, the first and second clauses would have to be connected so as to allow 'for the remission of sins' to modify both 'repent' and 'be baptized.' However, this presents the following grammatical problem: In the first clause, the person and number of the verb 'repent' do not agree with the verb 'be baptized' in the second clause. 'Repent' is second person plural number; 'be baptized' is third person singular number.
"It is a rule of Greek grammar, as it is in English, that the verb agrees with its subject in person and number."
So based on the way it is written it must be rendered "because of" or "for" as they choose. Not "in order to". It violates the way both languages are written otherwise.
Funny how you are a strict constructionist with when the Spirit is received, yet water is rarely present (or even mentioned) at any of these conversions - and somehow you are OK with that.
I am OK with that because if baptism is mentioned in connection with salvation, it always means in water. Kinda like taking a bath always implies there is water involved.
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Regarding Simon, Peter tells you what happened. His heart wasn't right. Simon wanted the power, not the Christ. You didn't see that in the text?
Yeah, I saw that in the text. It just looks to me like he developed his desire for the power after he had already received the Christ. Just because he wanted the power, which is true, doesn't mean that he didn't also want the Christ.
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You say the red above - but I am willing to say that you have never seen the Holy Spirit at a water baptism either. Do you only believe in water baptisms when accompanied with tongues?
No, but then I don't associate tongues with the baptism of the Holy Spirit either. I think tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit that is completely separate from the baptism of the Holy Spirit and usually happens at a different time.
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